Could Mary pray the Lord's Prayer?

yeah...this isn't the gotcha you're looking for...Mary, even though personally sinless by grace, voluntarily identifies herself with the fallen human race out of love. She does not stand above us saying “save those wretched people”, she stands with us saying “save us”.

Why would you post your own major L

Why are you commanded to pray "forgive us our sins" on a daily basis, if FAITH ALONE?

If Mary was sinless, she wouldn't pray "forgive us our trespasses". So by my debate opponent admitting she could pray the Lord's prayer, he's admitting she was a sinner.

The grammar Christ used is plural from the first line to the last. Christ could have taught singular language if He wanted a strictly personal form. He did not. He said Our Father. Not My Father. He said forgive us. Not forgive me. He said give us. Not give me. He said deliver us. Not deliver me. Mary belongs to that same body, although perfected. The plural form allows her to speak as mother for the body without any claim of personal sin. The plural form is not a personal confession statement. It is a petition spoken from within the communal identity Christ formed. The Church has never interpreted the Lord’s Prayer as a text that forces the speaker to intend every line as a personal autobiographical condition. If it did, then a righteous person in the Old Testament could not pray corporate penitential psalms. Yet Scripture shows righteous individuals praying for mercy over Israel without personal guilt. Daniel and Nehemiah are clear examples. They use plural penitential language without personal sin. They are not lying because they are representing the people before God. Christ did not invent this pattern. He assumed it and perfected it. He gave His disciples the definitive way to express the petitions of His people. Since Mary is part of the same people and has the supreme intercessory role, she can pray the Lord’s Prayer as the voice of the body whose forgiveness she seeks. The plural allows that without implying personal guilt. Christ chose the plural form for a theological reason. Prayer in His covenant is never solitary. It is familial, ecclesial, and corporate. The grammar is the proof. The patristic interpretation confirms it. The liturgical history continues it. Mary is inside that same prayer. Not outside it.

When Jesus prayed for other people's sins, he didn't say "Forgive us" he said "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." (Luke 23:34)

Regardless of my view on the subject this is an illogical argument. Truth cannot be gained from it. Q does not necessarily follow from P

If ‘forgive us our trespasses’ proves Mary sinned, then it proves Christ sinned too — He taught the prayer and prayed it with His disciples. The petition is corporate, not a confession of personal guilt. Disciples pray with the People of God, not always for their own sins.

This is such a bad argument lol

Jesus also prayed the Lord’s Prayer. This is such a terrible argument.

Its really sad, Roman Catholics will do anything they can to elevate Mary, she is their god! Jesus is just a baby Mary carries around (see every idol & image of theirs) or Jesus is still on the cross.

Yep, they do elevate her to levels Scripture doesn't do. Like Pope Pius IX: “The foundation of all Our confidence, as you know well, Venerable Brethren, is found in the Blessed Virgin Mary. For, God has committed to Mary the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will, that we obtain everything through Mary.” (Pope Pius IX - 1849, Ubi Primum)

Debate me, heretic. Stop hiding.

This is the stupidest question. Did you really think that this was a good point?! lol

Good grief! The Lord's Prayer is obviously a communal prayer. That is why Jesus, speaking in singular, did not recite it in the singular but in the plural. This "argument" reeks of desperation.

Under this logic, how would Jesus be able to say "fogive us our trespasses" when he taught us the Lord's Prayer? Wouldn't it make sense for him to say "Fogive THEM THEIR trespasses"?

This is embarresing for you.

There are some doctrines that cannot be defined. Catholicism is one. I believe thats just another form of idolatry.

Jesus prayed the Lord’s Prayer. Are you implying Jesus sinned?

So, If he says that Saints in heaven could pray the Lord’s Prayer, you would use it as an argument that he is admitting that they’re in sin? Even when he clarifies that one could say it in a communal sense and doesn’t necessarily have to be personally in sin?

The non-Catholic’s argument is ridiculous because that prayer was literally instituted by Jesus Himself, who did not sin. Jesus Himself is the very example of what the Catholic is defending: that you don’t have to be a sinner to include yourself when saying ‘forgive us our sins.’

If I say “we nuked Japan twice during the Second World War,” that doesn’t necessarily include me. How could you possibly think this is not just a good argument, but good enough to post as a clip of a Catholic being sufficiently proven wrong?

Jesus literally prayed the Lord’s Prayer and all of the Psalms (including the penitential psalms). This is not an argument against the sinlessness of the Mother of God; but rather, sophistry.

It isn’t logical to argue that Mary must have been personally sinful simply because she could pray the Lord’s Prayer. When Jesus taught the prayer, He wasn’t giving each line as a diagnosis of the individual person saying it; He was giving His disciples a model of how the people of God pray as a community. Even Jesus Himself, who was absolutely without sin, taught the prayer and could recite it without implying personal guilt. The petition “forgive us our trespasses” is spoken in a communal, covenantal sense—“us,” not “me”—expressing the human family’s need for God’s mercy. Mary, like every righteous person of the Old Covenant, participated in the humility and solidarity of God’s people; praying those words does not require personal sin any more than Jesus teaching the prayer would imply sin in Him. So the argument assumes an individualistic meaning that the prayer itself does not demand, and therefore it does not logically follow that Mary’s participation would prove she was a sinner.

Orthodox answer: Yes, because Mary inherited the same fallen nature as mankind. However, this doesn't mean she used her free will to indulge in sin.... This is a kindergarten-level gotcha.

Smartest protestant

I used to be an anti catholic before, God rocked my world and i repented. After reading the first 1000 years of church fathers. I am now a Catholic.

If this is his highlight, I'm guessing this debate did not go well for him.

Protestants are the reddit form of Christianity, all semantic bickering without any understanding

Mary praying the Lord’s Prayer would no more make her a sinner than Jesus praying the Psalms made Him a sinner. Sinless people can pray prayers written for humanity, just as Mary proclaims “my spirit rejoices in God my Savior” (Luke 1:47) without admitting personal sin. The Church Fathers unanimously taught her all-holy (Panagia), preserved from sin by Christ from the first moment of her existence, not purified after falling into sin. God Bless.

What an absurd argument.

Yes. Here’s why: Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist. John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Mark 1:4 Did Jesus have any sins to remit or repent of?

Jesus says “this is how you should pray” Jesus is God. Mary is obedient to God. Therefore Mary would pray the our father the way Jesus prescribed.

Yes, Mary can pray the Our Father prayer…because Mary is the Most Humble (Luke 1:48) and cannot judge & declare herself to be “sinless”—Only GOD can do that. And Mary is SINLESS in the eyes of God. She did exactly what Jesus wanted from us: “Be PERFECT as your Heavenly Father is perfect”. Mary declared “Behold, I am the Handmaid-Servant of God”. (Luke 1:38 Literal Translation) “Handmaid-Servant of God” is an even more “humble position” than “Servant of God”— A “handmaid-servant” CANNOT & MUST NOT follow “her own will”—but MUST DO ONLY the will of her “master”—ie God’s Will in Mary. She must ALWAYS Obey  & NEVER Disobey God—ie Mary Never Sinned.

I think maybe the more important question is: did Mary forgive others and thus avoid sinning by not forgiving? If yes then could she pray "as we forgive"? Yes. And we pray for grace to forgive, and she needed to be given grace too and she was given it.

Ohhh dear protestants that's very very poor. God didn't chose only a surrogate mother for his son, but he has chosen a pure woman and no other woman can compare herself with her. Why do questioning all that at all? Who are you to disrespect our holy mother of God?