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NFL Coaches Are Getting Two-Point Conversions Completely Wrong

127,370 次观看 • 3 天前 •via X (Twitter)

64 条评论

Eagles Eric 的头像
Eagles Eric3 天前

Historical two-point data can blur designed QB runs and scrambles. Excluding all QB carries, non-QB runs still converted 56.0% versus 45.4% for explicit passing plays, including sacks.

Eagles Eric 的头像
Eagles Eric3 天前

Many have asked about how the offense/defense strengths/weaknesses play into this. Non-QB runs converted 56% vs. 45% for passes. Adjusting for team strengths didn’t erase the gap. Note: Some sample sizes are very small

BoxScore 的头像
BoxScore3 天前

Defenses expect pass which opens the run. If run becomes more common there’s a good chance these results flip.

Eagles Eric 的头像
Eagles Eric3 天前

100%

SportsBook Breakers 的头像
SportsBook Breakers3 天前

There’s obviously a balance. The reason runs are more successful is they are less expect with these frequency numbers. And are being called/checked to in the most advantageous defensive alignments. I suspect the optimal balance is slightly more runs but not an extreme shift.

Eagles Eric 的头像
Eagles Eric3 天前

It’s 75/25 now, which is way out of whack if you look at conversion rate. I think it should start trending towards 50/50 over time (if actors are rational)

Philip Edward Delphia 的头像
Philip Edward Delphia3 天前

This is interesting but I think the primary reason runs have been more successful is because teams that choose to run the ball are a good running team. Everyone would choose to run if they have Derrick Henry or Bijan Robinson.

Eagles Eric 的头像
Eagles Eric3 天前

I checked for that. Better rushing teams have a modest increase in rush usage (true mean is somewhere between 0.2 and 5.4% more runs). That is a trivial difference considering the 75/25 chasm between the plays.

Brian Connell 的头像
Brian Connell3 天前

@floppingdimes20 Did you treat teams as being “better rushing teams” due to overall season success or game/drive rushing success? I think the opponent’s weakness against the run may be a big factor in the differential conversion success rates

Eagles Eric 的头像
Eagles Eric3 天前

@floppingdimes20 Overall season. No matter how you slice the data (by team, by scheme, by era, by personnel, by opponent, etc) the trend still strongly skews towards way more passing attempts at a lower conversion rate

Chris Housser 的头像
Chris Housser3 天前

Good data. For the 4th and 2 anywhere on the field pass results, you should exclude data where pass is caught > 12 yards. That must account for some meaningful % of the successful times.

Eagles Eric 的头像
Eagles Eric3 天前

I hear you! That was kept in on purpose as I wanted to show why the conversion rates were way closer, and the condensed field is most of the reason why. I may take a peak at looking at only plays under 12 air yards and see what it looks like

mike jones 的头像
mike jones3 天前

pretty crazy that this video will inevitably affect play calling in the NFL

Mike Sando 的头像
Mike Sando3 天前

Does this assume coaches have no insight into what they think will work best for their team against each opponent? For example, coaches who decide to run the ball might do so because they feel they have a physical advantage?

Eagles Eric 的头像
Eagles Eric3 天前

This should add some context!

ProFootballStatCards 的头像
ProFootballStatCards3 天前

Man, this is a great video! Love the animation too, made it fun.

Beat The Odds 的头像
Beat The Odds3 天前

Love the data, love the retro bowl style presentation. Will definitely use this info next time I am in this situation while coaching an NFL team.

ⒷⓁ Brian Long 的头像
ⒷⓁ Brian Long3 天前

@JohnCUrschel did a whole mathematical write up on this subject.

Eagles Eric 的头像
Eagles Eric3 天前

@JohnCUrschel Cool thanks for linking, although this paper is exclusively about two vs kick, not run vs pass on 2 point tries

ⒷⓁ Brian Long 的头像
ⒷⓁ Brian Long3 天前

@JohnCUrschel Yes, your analysis is great. Just adding that writeup. And he included variance, which would be important to consider. As coaches are certainly risk adverse.

Eagles Eric 的头像
Eagles Eric3 天前

@JohnCUrschel Yes, absolutely! My main point is more that WHEN they go for 2, they should run it more often, not necessarily that they should go for 2 more. Appreciate the added context

Marcus Athari 的头像
Marcus Athari3 天前

In RPO circumstances, I presume you count run/pass outcome respectively (end up running, it’s a run play, pass it’s a pass play). Is there an advantage to running an RPO vs. straight run/pass?

Eagles Eric 的头像
Eagles Eric3 天前

Yes. And also, yes. RPOs seem to be one of the better options.

Marcus Athari 的头像
Marcus Athari3 天前

Thank you kindly for your response.

mtc 的头像
mtc3 天前

love this, great work eric. would love to see how the data would be affected if we control or separate by formation - since that seems to heavily affect defensive personnel and play calling.

Eagles Eric 的头像
Eagles Eric3 天前

Probably the best way to run it in is from 11 personnel and spread out the field. I could look into this

jim iuorio 的头像
jim iuorio3 天前

There’s an element that you are not accounting for. Runs become more successful if you have shown the defender that you may pass. In other words, it feels like your conclusion is just to always run, but if you did that defenses would lean on the run…they must coexist to be successful…but I don’t disagree that the ratio should flip to put the odds back in your favor.

Eagles Eric 的头像
Eagles Eric3 天前

I see how it could come across that way. Hopefully you don’t think I’m that dumb to suggest they should run everytime just because the success rate is higher 😂 My real contention is they should run more until the success rates start to equalize

Dakota Stiles 的头像
Dakota Stiles3 天前

Would love to see the passes broken down by play action vs not.

Eagles Eric 的头像
Eagles Eric3 天前

For 2 point tries? I can do that. Also recommend checking out my play action video if you haven't seen it:

Clevta 的头像
Clevta3 天前

I’ve always thought runs are under utilized on 2s but can you parse out designed runs vs QBs scrambles bc I assume the scrambles are skewing this?

Eagles Eric 的头像
Eagles Eric3 天前

Scrambles are passes. Imagine if it was 75% passes if you included scrambles as runs!

Jack 的头像
Jack3 天前

@Clevta Does the defensive formation impact the run/pass play call decision? May out bias in the data

Eagles Eric 的头像
Eagles Eric3 天前

If that existed, I still don’t believe it would bias the data. If defenses can actually force offenses to audible from a run to a pass, then stop the pass, that would be a legitimate phenomenon and would still be an indictment of the offense. There’s no evidence that this is happening at a significant rate. I watched 150 two point conversions to help prevent any obvious methodological flaws.

Snacktar Donutsk 🍩 的头像
Snacktar Donutsk 🍩3 天前

Love this video

WWIA7062 的头像
WWIA70623 天前

This would be different if the tush push was banned

mortimersnerd 的头像
mortimersnerd3 天前

Both have to remain viable options for either to be effective, so whatever the success the successful enjoys, it is quickly countered. What's not properly considered is the athleticism of 350 lb behemoths on crossing routes...or 7 ft. tight-ends....anything other than another god-forsaken back corner fade.

Jk 的头像
Jk3 天前

Amazing video

Dave P. 的头像
Dave P.3 天前

If there was a major shift in coaching philosophy towards runs on 2pt conversions, and defenses started to account/prepare for that, could that have an impact on this analysis?

Eagles Eric 的头像
Eagles Eric3 天前

Yes, it would converge towards equal effectiveness

Jk 的头像
Jk3 天前

@CoachHebert9

querulous dude 的头像
querulous dude3 天前

using historical data of 2 pt and 1 pt tries (only since line was moved back), should any/all teams always go for 2?

Eagles Eric 的头像
Eagles Eric3 天前

Fascinating question. One issue is that teams don’t have an endless Rolodex of plays for that distance. Since the PAT moved back in 2015, two point tries from the 2 averaged 0.963 net points vs. 0.944 for kick. Thats just 2 extra points per 100 tries. Break-even is roughly 47.7%. I would say if you think your particularly good at twos and defending them, theres some +EV there

querulous dude 的头像
querulous dude3 天前

Thanks kindly for the analysis and insight. Do you think it’s only a matter of time before a coach/team opts for a 2 point try after every touchdown?

JB 的头像
JB3 天前

Does a pass play that results in a QB scramble get counted as a run in this data? I would suspect that would account for a meaningful amount of these, feel like we often see teams move the pocket on pass plays near the goal line

Eagles Eric 的头像
Eagles Eric3 天前

Check the replies!

Goal Line Gimli 的头像
Goal Line Gimli3 天前

this is amazing. Well done and shown.

MAGADONIAN 的头像
MAGADONIAN3 天前

This is interesting because theoretically a 2-pt conversion rush after every TD is better than kicking the extra point. Although it doesn’t account for the other team knowing exactly what you are going to do.

Matt 的头像
Matt3 天前

Negligible, and probably not enough sample size, but defense may also be more likely to return an interception for points than a fumble.

Just 的头像
Just3 天前

What about passes that break down and turn into runs? What are those counted as?

Davi Alcantara 的头像
Davi Alcantara3 天前

Hello @Raiders

SueUrazz 的头像
SueUrazz3 天前

You failed to account for the influence the pass plays have on the success of the runs. Defenses anticipate pass bc 76% of attempts are passes. Runs can catch them off guard.

Eagles Eric 的头像
Eagles Eric3 天前

No, they should run more for precisely that reason.

SueUrazz 的头像
SueUrazz3 天前

Yes but you do understand that, if everyone took your advice, that would be to runs being less effective

Eagles Eric 的头像
Eagles Eric3 天前

The point is they are passing at an irrationally high rate. They should pass less often until teams start to recruit more resources to stopping the run

Arminius 的头像
Arminius3 天前

But how many of the “runs” were passes where the QB had an option to pass but scrambled in?

Eagles Eric 的头像
Eagles Eric3 天前

Less than 80 out of over 2000 plays. Some of the older data it’s not possible to parse out QB designed run vs scramble, but no matter the split it’s not enough to materially change the trend

Arminius 的头像
Arminius3 天前

Not disputing your amazing analysis. That’s all I could thing of since it’s a common goaline strategy to roll the QB out and if defender bites he passes and if he stays with his man he lobs it.

Josh Morris 的头像
Josh Morris3 天前

I think you have to distinguish between designed runs and scrambles.

Eagles Eric 的头像
Eagles Eric3 天前

See the follow up post!

CollegeSports24/7 的头像
CollegeSports24/73 天前

Elite research

Daryle Hawkins 的头像
Daryle Hawkins3 天前

One could argue that there is a larger emotional tax to getting stopped on a run as pass. We talk about high impact plays. Id guess a team that fails a 2pt on a pass has a higher likelihood of winning the game than a team that fails a 2pt on a run.

Eagles Eric 的头像
Eagles Eric3 天前

Looked into it. Teams won 43% after failed runs vs. 35% after failed passes.

ron 的头像
ron3 天前

@TravisDHolmes Not privy to the data, but I’d imagine teams that choose to run, know they can get it, whereas teams choosing to pass likely have a poorer run game, specially in short yardage situations. As an example, Ravens and Bills are probably gonna run, a team like the chargers can’t

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