Praying to the saints is solving a problem that does not exist. Jesus does not need Mary or anyone else to placate Him so we can get through to Him. His work at the cross is sufficient, and He Himself is the one interceding for us right now. (Rom... 8:34) This practice has historically slid Mary and others into the role that belongs to Christ alone: 1 John 2:1b We have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, Jesus isn't our reluctant Savior who just needs some convincing. Gavin Ortlund’s full video on this is excellent. Link in comments.show more

God doesn't need you to intercede for anyone else either, so this line of reasoning proves too much.

Straw man. Who says prayers placate God? The Bible makes it clear that we need to pray for one another, and makes no exceptions for the deceased. The saints are alive anyway, as Christ says multiple times in John’s gospel.

You are arguing as if love is not part of Christianity, as if its magic. It has nothing to do with needing and none of us ever claimed it did. What a sad way to think about God. This is exactly what lead me away from Reformed theology.

Asking saints for prayers does not imply Jesus is a reluctant Savior, and it doesn't replace Christ's unique role as sole mediator. Because death cannot sever the Body of Christ, asking a saint in heaven for intercession is identical to asking a friend on earth to pray for you. Saints possess no power of their own. They are like the moon reflecting the sun, they mirror Christ's light and point believers back to Him, just as Mary did at Cana by saying, "Do whatever he tells you." It's not a matter of fixing a non-existent problem, it's that praying to saints is simply participating in the interconnected family of God.

Jesus’s first public miracle (Cana) was due to the intercession of his mother.

Straw man. No one ever said Jesus NEEDS Mary. However, He desires Her as a King desires his mother be honored. Likewise - the Angel Gabriel honored Her. Elizabeth honored Her. St. John honored Her. And the Logos honored Her not only from all eternity, but also at Cana - performing His first miracle at Her INTERCESSION.

And yet we have zero hesitation asking others to intercede for us. 1 Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

2nd Temple Jews have and modern Orthodox Jews still pray to the saints. 'Which if the Holy Ones will you turn to?' Job 5:1, Rachel weeps for her children from heaven in Jeramiah 38 and God hears her plea and acts on it. Mary prays to Jesus for the servants at the wedding in Cana. The Pharasees thought Jesus was praying to Elijah in heaven when Christ was on the cross. Why would they assume this if it wasn't already something that people did?

Contrary to what I have heard over the years about avoid Gavin Ortlund. I have found his Youtube to be a goldmine for Reformed Baptists and Christians in general who are opposed to Roman Catholic addendums to the Word of God.

Some people see his more liberal views on creation and culture as red flags, but he's actually a lot more nuanced and open about these topics than what he's given credit for. He's also one of the most inviting people when it comes to disagreement as long as he's not being mischaracterized. I agree. His channel is a goldmine.

Yes. I agree.

Yea why would we ask others to pray for us I mean who does that right?

“Jesus isn't our reluctant Savior who just needs some convincing.” Nobody is saying this.

Christ doesn’t need angels either, but he uses them. He doesn’t need prophets…he could have just sent a written message, but he didn’t. Stop pretending you understand the reasoning of a supreme being and go read Job.

1 Timothy is far from an argument against intercession of the saints. Paul, in context, is instructing Timothy to make intercession for authorities BECAUSE there is one mediator between God and man. In other words, intercession is rooted in Christ’s mediation.

So add intercessory prayer to the list of things Protestants reject.

He doesn’t need Paul to write epistles either but He chose to do it that way. Framing it as about need is weird.

How do you explain Job 42:8-10 where God wouldn't accept the sacrifice of Job's friend but would only accept Job's sacrifice due to his holiness? Does that not imply that when holy people intercede for you, God is more likely to listen?

Saint Joseph pray for these lost souls.

To the hordes of slop-pologists swarming in to the comments. 1. Gavin already addressed the usual "it's just like asking my buddy to pray for me" comeback in the video. 2. He quotes some of the more egregious Marian prayers 3. He covers the fact that departed saints may (at least possibly) pray for us, but how that isnt the same claim as the notion we should pray to them.

God doesn't need anything or anyone....go on

Satan is really good at his job. Catholicism and Orthodoxy prove it.

Strawmanning is lame. The saints aren't asked for their intercession because Jesus is somehow reluctant or unapproachable. This is a fabrication, a figment of the Protestant imagination. Jack Chick-esque.

Read 1 Tim 2 from verse 1: Paul commands “intercessions for all people” four verses before “one mediator.” Asking a saint to pray for you no more replaces Christ than asking your pastor does. Nobody thinks Jesus needs placating. We think the Church in heaven still prays (Rev 5:8)

This is a bad take. We are supposed to be one family with Jesus as head. We are one: he in us and we in him as he is in the father and the father in him. We are supposed to help each other to pray for each other and to pray together to God. Since he is the God of the living and not the dead: the people who died physically are still alive and still part of the family. If Gavin is right, then nothing we do together makes sense, because God doesn’t need any of those things to be God. No church. No prayer. No congregation. No love each other. No sacrifices. No followship. Nothing. But he wants all of this, because he approaches us through other humans. All the time. He talks through prophets, apostles, sinners, kings and ultimately himself as a human. So why should we reject his will?

We don’t pray to the saints. We ask them to pray for us. Do they have something better to do as part of the Church Triumphant? Should we stop praying for one another and only pray for ourselves? It is the greatest joy of the saints to pray for us.

Common protestant L. The logic of your argument directly stands against scripture. "Confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed". -James 5:16

What a load of utter trash.

Protestants think "it's me and Jesus" rather than " Jesus and us". It's a shallow and selfish religion they created.

Yet millions of miracles confirm that God indeed approves and wants us to ask for intercession. I rather believe God and His Church on the matter.

Everyone who looks upon the Father shall have eternal life. You pray for their intercession with the father not to the saints or angels themselves. If you've ever asked anyone to pray for you or to keep you in their prayers your doing the same thing.

This kind of argument can be applied to anything. Insert "reading the Bible" in place of praying to the saints and the argument is unchanged. It's so clever because of course Jesus doesn't "need" anything, so you can use this to shoot down anything you dislike. Jesus just doesn't "need" to do anything; that doesn't mean He hasn't rightfully commanded us to do certain things, or that other things are permitted and beneficial even if not required.

It's ironic that someone whose theology is rooted in post-Reformation ideology would accuse someone else of "God needs," when you have a god to whom "must" and "cannot" apply across the board. Your god *must* punish all sin, and your god "cannot" be in its presence. Your god is literally shackled by the god of necessity, while the Real God whom we serve desires for His creatures to participate in His Life and work, and freely shares that with us out of His love for His creation. There is nothing that our God must or must not do, and there is nothing He cannot do. Our God is completely free and boundless, while your god is a servant in chains.

Another nonsensical claim. If you assert that there is no intercessor besides Jesus, then why do you ask others to pray for you?

When you ask your neighbor or fellow congregants to pray for you are you then denying His work at the cross was sufficient?