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Quick take: Helpful to the agent: • The encounter unfolded fast, which likely limited his ability to recognize that he was out of the danger zone for shots two and three. • He couldn’t see the angle of the tires (which a lot of people are putting a lot... show more
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Not an expert in any way... but doesn't his actions prior to this go against logical training protocols? Why would he position himself in front of the car while she's talking to an officer on her left? Why would he keep shooting after she passed by w/bystanders nearby?
It will factor into both the totality of the circumstances and the analysis of whether his actions were objectively reasonable.
What would be his purpose of walking in front of the car, if any?
@robdoar He was circling the car filming with his phone. He ended in front.
@robdoar It’s amateur hour
@_cingraham “Fucking bitch” is definitely relevant to his intent and state of mind. This is not a justified use of deadly force. This is murder in the second degree/manslaughter as lesser included offense.
“He couldn’t see the angle of the tires” but literally sees her turning the wheel all the way in the direction away from him. And why would he think he was in the danger zone shooting in the side window?
Does it matter that she can be seen rotating the steering wheel to the right before hitting the gas? Also, why is he filming? Would this matter? Why did he do two circles around the car? Does this matter?
Potentially. Though it's not clear where he was looking or whether he could know the direction of the path of movement of the car based off that information. I only mentioned the angle of the wheels because there has been a TON of commentary about it, and if he couldn't see it, it's largely irrelevant.
He was a lot more likely to see it if he wasn't trying to film this encounter. That really bothers me. These guys need body cams.
@robdoar How did an object in hand interfere with eyes on face?
@robdoar Where is the object and how much attention does he have to making sure it's filming what he wants filmed? He's holding a cell phone to record while this thing escalates. Horrible.
@majorityfm To me a critical element here (very apparent in other angles) is that he got himself out of danger by stepping a foot or two to his right. How does blowing Ms. Good's brains out help him protect himself?
@RobGeorge He could see her turning the fucking wheel to the right though.
The bottom 3 points are not relevant. Maybe relevant in the court of public opinion, but not the law. You're again armchair quarterbacking the 2nd and 3rd shots which took place after he already decided to shoot. Anyone who studies self defense knows the OODA loop and react time
It is the law. Self-defense is an affirmative defense evaluated under objective reasonableness, which expressly accounts for the officer’s perception, the severity and immediacy of the threat, and his tactical decisions before and during the use of force. Courts assess the totality of the circumstances, including the severity, whether the threat continued, and whether the officer created or escalated the danger.
It sounds like we agree then. Her demeanor prior to striking him with her car is not relevant to his decision to shoot. Her hitting him with the car is. Clearly, getting hit with a car would cause a reasonable person to believe they're at risk of death or serious harm.
No, we don't agree. Barnes v. Felix requires an analysis of the totality of the circumstances. You said the listed factors are not legally relevant. You're wrong.
What of her turning the wheel, though?
He may not be able to see the angle of the tires but he can clearly see her turning hard to the right, away from his position at the front left of the car.
@dhmontgomery Could you argue that watching her hand over hand turn the steering wheel away from him negates the fact he can’t see the angle of the tires?
The "cordial / not showing animosity" part I feel is a little up to interpretation. Every part of this interaction seems sneering and hostile to me.
"It's murder because he said a bad word about the woman who just hit him with her car"
@majorityfm With his own actions, that thug exposed himself as a bully with hyperactive finger trigger. Whoever defends that asshole is also an asshole but dumber.
What limited his ability to recognize anything was filming on his phone even after other agents arrived - even while his gun was drawn, while firing. He doesn’t stop the recording until after she crashes.
Other cons I would also add in the fact that he was walking around filming the entire encounter, distracting him from context clues, and that he swapped the phone between hands as he walked to the front of the car, as if he was anticipating a possible confrontation.
@majorityfm Her hands on the steering wheel, turning her wheels away from him, were in his line of vision. Had he put his phone down he could have seen a lot more during this tense situation. Instead he chose to murder a woman who clearly wasn’t an agitator.
My question is it smart to be holding and looking thru a phone as you record? Especially if you’re walking in front of a running car?
"The encounter unfolded fast, which likely limited his ability to recognize that he was out of the danger zone for shots two and three." Your first instinct when you think you're about to be run over is to draw a gun and point it at the driver? Or jump aside?
He could see her hands turning the steering wheel though, it’s clear as day in his phone video.
@majorityfm How could shooting the person help even if they were trying to kill him! They just die and keep driving forward. There's zero justification for what he did. The most charitable, fair jury on earth could only go down to manslaughter. Nothing less than 2nd degree would be justice.
Why did he have his gun drawn at all? Nothing in that situation would have called for deadly response. Nothing.
No he probably couldn't see the tire angle, but he sure could see her turning the steering wheel AWAY from him. That is, he could've if he wasn't preoccupied with filming her...
LOL WHUT She wasn't cordial and showed animosity. The wife told her to drive instead of being arrested. Doing so led to her almost running over her wife and two other agents. Him saying "fucking bitch" after being hit/almost being hit means nothing except he considers her action of almost running them over makes her a bitch. You people are legit insane with these horrible analyzations of the event.
Reminder, he's not to be granted the low bar of awareness because he is a trained, experienced, were told, operative. Professionals must be held to a higher standard than the lowest common denominator of gen pip, ans also must be held accountable for deliberately instigating
What about the fact that he is filming with one one hand on his cell phone throughout the entire ordeal - do elements of distraction, not having both hands, etc. come into play?
Also not helpful to the officer is the fact that it’s clear as day from his perspective that she turned the wheel all the way to the right before moving forward.
@majorityfm Why is he filming her with his phone? If he’s on duty? Don’t ICE agents have body cams? It seems to me he’s preoccupied with filming her which obstructs his judgement at the moment he draws his weapon.
He could see her turning the steering wheel to the right .. also when he was completely clear to the side why fire 2 more shots?
Her being cordial isnt relevant if she's unaware of how deadly her actions are. It's clear she didnt think this was a problem
@majorityfm This shows the agent could see clearly that she was turning the wheel to the right, away from where he was standing at the time.
@mossy2099695 ok wait are we allowed to kill people if we imagine their tires are pointed at us
@_Sweet_Lew She literally hit him with the car is he supposed to be happy? Regardless of where someone is standing you can’t drive into them. And law enforcement can shoot fleeing people if they pose a danger. They have slightly different use of force rules
Witnesses report conflicting orders from ICE. Some say she was complying with an order to leave the area. If the trained officer was confused& fearful because of how fast things were happening, imagine how the untrained civilian felt, hearing conflicting orders from masked men.
She was not cordial considering she was blocking the street with her car
@_cingraham You may not see the tires but you can see her clearly cutting her wheel way to her right.
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