Religious apologist: science actually proves my faith Me: how so? RA: because science proves order cannot come from disorder Me: oh?

It appears that someone, though unseen, is deliberately shaking that basket with the express purpose of making things line up in a very certain way

Your demo already starts with massive prior order. Uniform nails, identical material, identical geometry. Try getting the same result from random metal molecules instead of pre-manufactured objects. Criticizing faith is a weak move anyway.

Did I criticize faith? Read my words carefully. I did not.

@ArtisanTony Attempting to correct a "religious apologist" is criticizing faith.

@LyingWrongAgain Correcting a myth about Christianity is not criticizing faith.

Fascinating, the ordered individual has to shake the disorganized nail container, and it becomes ordered in the process.

The one supplying the shaking doesn’t have to be organized for the result to work, any more than the nails you see in the video have to be silver in color 😂 Spontaneous increase in order from disordered state in a heat bath / random environmental agitation is very broad

Lmao atheists wanna be right so bad

The video indicates that there's a human with a mind who is intervening with an outcome of order in mind.

That is part of the *demonstration*, but you are missing the *principle* The necessary and sufficient cause of the result - increase in order - is a disordered initial configuration + random impulses (approximately) If this wasn’t a natural phenomenon geology would be boring👇

Still have time to delete this by the way

Why? It’s a simple demo anyone can do of a well established physics principle You should try it

@AncappaThaRappa You are moving the box in predictable and repeated motions. Thus, you are using intelligence to manipulate it into an expected outcome. If it were actually random, then you would have shaken it left and right, up and down, and the nails would have never organized.

@trasher_NAVI000 @LyingWrongAgain I wouldn’t. But if it were a monkey or a raccoon it still would disprove the OP’s original argument. I never presented what I know to be true, only pointed out that the video disproved the thesis. Have a good day!

Replies: But an intelligent agent did this Me: in this *demonstration* an intelligent agent supplied the random impulses. But it’s the random impulses that produce the effect Naturally occurring magnetism and crystals result from the same phenomenon

Increasingly desperate replies: the video was in reverse! Me: here’s a particle physicist reproducing the same effect using a clever trick to show it’s not reversed

Replies coping: the shaking wasn’t random Me: it approximated random impulses; random is defined as independently chosen in a uniform distribution; results on avg generally approach a Gaussian distribution in the limit of large numbers Brownian (thermal) motion is an example

Replies: the order was there from the beginning Me: the objects start in any randomly chosen configuration. They reproducibly end up in a parallel configuration that has fewer possible states This is an increase in order (decrease in entropy) by definition

Replies: the shape of the objects and the container were carefully chosen to produce this effect Me: actually self sorting of mixture + agitation is a general phenomenon It works with irregular shapes in arbitrary containers like breakfast cereal, mixed nuts and sediments

Replies: without shaking nothing would happen Me: true, the shaking simulates the continual random motion that molecules in gas, dust in space, sediments in water or wind, or atoms in a magnet are exposed to in many natural self-ordering processes👇

Replies: the shaking wasn’t perfectly random Me: here’s the other video by a particle physicist where the shaking is more random - just takes longer

Video by @claranellist from here

Replies: why not shake it hard enough to cause nails to fly in all directions? Me: 😂 Here’s nature doing 3D “shaking” for us and showing we still get spontaneous self-sorting Earth’s core (left), Jupiter’s bands (right)

More cope: this adds energy To be precise it doesn’t “add energy” It adds random impulses, which sometimes add & sometimes subtract from the objects’ energy, with their average energy ~constant Very roughly analogous to molecules under thermal agitation at some temperature

~12k likes and 3k copes later~ Religious apologist: if you leave nails alone nothing happens Me: True. The agitation of nails (which we can see) only illustrates the constant motion of atoms in grains, liquids, gases, outer space etc (which we can’t) But analogous effects

“how’s it random?” in statistical mechanics random defined: can be approximated as chosen from a probability distribution (can be uniform) independent of prior values Each nails feels random impulses of nearest neighbors (sometimes the walls) not a non-random hand guiding them

Caveat: yes, the shaking of a 4-sided shape by a 2-handed human is not *perfectly* random. So try it yourself! 😂 The principle behind the demo is well established - analogous to thermal motion of atoms & other natural processes Here’s another fun one by @Stithsonian

@Stithsonian 🤬😭🥺 “but it started with certain specific forces and objects, and they have order” Me: we are testing if order can arise from disorder, not if something can come from nothing Same idea works across a broad range of natural forces and objects, not just the ones in that demo

@Stithsonian ~FINAL BOSS COPE~ “This doesn’t prove [no God, abiogenesis, why bad things happen to good people]” 🤬 Me: Yes. It just proves order can arise from disorder in a way anyone can try at home, instead of using tiny invisible atoms or waiting centuries Try it! ❤️🙏

@Stithsonian Also don’t play with matches kids 😂 I suggest toothpicks?

Could that have happened naturally, with no one shaking the box?

Good question With wind/rain/elements maybe, but certainly it would take a long time if ever But molecules in liquid are in constant agitation due to thermal motion, which is how similar principles can cause spontaneous order in geology, chemistry & biochemistry (crystals etc)

I’m only trying to understand how this example disproves God. Near as I can tell, you just used a metaphor for disproving God to prove God. Switching to a different metaphor or example doesn’t answer my question. If a different example proves your point, why not use that?

Me: Cool cool. What was it doing before you picked it up? You: Nothing Me: And what happened after you put it down? You: Nothing Me: Got it. So explain to me again how it all happened randomly?

It’s a simple demo of a widespread principle Molten lava, molecules in water, sands and soils, gaseous clouds in space are all in constant motion due to thermal / environmental agitation etc Nails are human made and inert, but easily illustrate the principle 👇

Yeah I get it. You’re just making an extraordinarily gigantic leap that this somehow equates to the universe coming into being. In order for your nails analogy to work, you would have to extrapolate that all nails everywhere somehow aligned & have remained aligned.

This is purposeful action that explains how the order arose. Purposeful action is orderly.

The only necessary assumption to produce the effect is that the impulses applied are chosen at random Yes, a human is supplying the random impulses in this little demonstration for practical reasons, but it’s an established phenomenon in nature too (from heat, mixing, etc)

They are not random human impulses in the video. He tilts the pan downward one way and then another. Each tilt forces the objects to straighten out a bit as they hit the wall of the pan.

You had to spend energy to do that. Iykyk

Faulty premise. What makes one state "order" and another "disorder"?

Your video shows an intelligent mind causing order.

Notice that intelligence was required for this demonstration

Intelligence was *used* in this demonstration for obvious practical reasons to supply (approximately) random impulses The intelligence isn’t required to produce the effect. The random impulses are If I could take a video of Earth’s core self-organizing from heat, I would 👇

You're lying to yourself

Thanks for backing up theism

Christian Physicist here: Science (Physics) does not teach that order does not come out of disorder. It teaches that systems tend toward disorder naturally and that to create order out of disorder work has to be done. Where the problem arises is not order out of disorder, but organization out of disorder arising spontaneously. E.g. all the left handed amino acids forming a chain (and not even talking about in the right order) in even the simplest protein randomly assembling is 1x10^-30 (0 followed by 30 decimal places before you get to the 1. When you need them in the right order, the number is essentially 0 in scientific terms (unless you're Lloyd Christmas). Increases in organization require 4 things: energy, a mechanism to do work, work, and a blueprint for the mechanism to follow.

Ok little buddy! 🙂‍↕️

…you are using your intelligence to move the box to >order< disorganized nails…

The person’s intelligence is as irrelevant as the color of their underwear. Try it blindfolded Large # objects in disorder + random internal jostling —> spontaneous order under a broad range of conditions It’s well established in physics chemistry, geology, biology

Order is a metaphysical concept. Once you start admitting order exists then you’ve accepted that the metaphysical is real. That doesn’t prove a particular faith. But it does mean agreement that there is something beyond the physical world.

It can be well defined in physics as the inverse of entropy The equation for entropy is on Boltzmann’s tombstone We can quantify the order of a physical system and track how it changes and under what circumstances - the wonders of thermodynamics

If entropy is disorder, then yes, the opposite is order. It’s a double negation. But this is question begging. What is order, in a broader sense?

You do understand Christian’s believe God created the universe we live in right? That means all the rules within it, even chaos.

Congratulations on demonstrating immanent teleology which is a core premise for St. Thomas Aquinas's Fifth Way for proving God.

You forget the Intelligent person who knew and understood this, and did it. Indeed, intilligence can organize chaos.

It’s true that in this demonstration, a person owned the hands, & the person is intelligent But it was only the random motion of the hands that was necessary & sufficient to cause order - not intelligence. Unintelligent random motion of wind, water etc produces the same effect

@AleMartnezR1 I disagree, but let’s suppose you’re right and we performed the experiment again, using impulses that were random Are you asserting the result would be different? Because you are wrong 😑

religion is less about the screws and more about who is shaking the box

How would you call this disorder? The person shaking even changes rhythm and direction in order to straighten the nails out. This is ordered organization by an intelligent mind. How can you miss that?

His movements are in a sequence, controlled and manipulating the nails, with the box. That's not order coming from disorder. Its order coming from order, ie...consistent with creationist ideas. Have a toddler shake it randomly and see if the nails line up.

Dude You put nails designed by human Minds Into a box with 90° angles designed by human Minds And then you used your own human mind to shake it just right to make it fall into order Because you knew in advance that it would do that because of the properties of the nails and of the box You did not pick objects at random. You did not pick a container at random. You selected only the ones that you knew would achieve this result. There is absolutely fucking nothing about this that is random. This is the biggest self-embarrassment I've seen in years. This is nothing but a demonstration that an intelligent mind which understands many different concepts at the same time can produce order from chaos

if you are so certain there is no God , why do you try so hard to prove it to other people...just live the way you want to

@expendable4mDOB This only demonstrates that order can come from disorder If there is a god, he created a universe where it is possible for order to come from disorder Why is this so hard for some people to accept?

There is God, and yes, order can come from disorder, anyone who has interacted or transacted with God knows this, or anyone who has read the bible

For someone whose name says lying should be wrong, you lie with your first post. No one claims that order cannot be introduced into systems when you add energy under specific conditions. Talk about dishonesty.

Your entire rebuttal hinges on one's faith being tied to the "order cannot come from disorder" claim, when there is actually several other scientific and philosophical reasons why their faith can be strengthened. Congrats on winning your imaginary argument tho chief 🫡

AI or not, this shaking is adding energy into a closed system. You have increased the entropy of the universe to lower the entropy of this bin. There is a non-zero probability that spontaneous order forms. It is a very low probability and you will likely never see it occur.

It’s not AI, granular convection and self-sorting is a well established phenomenon and here’s a particle physicist reproducing this particular demonstration Spontaneous order forms readily in open systems, that’s why crystal minerals are amazing

It's always a lack of imagination with you people. Try this for random. (Not pictured, the part where an intelligent, ordered process picked up all the screws and put them back).

Try it with everything being a different size nuts, bolts, nails, etc., of various shapes and without you shifting it, i.e., without any organized energy from outside. And without the container. What a dumb example that merely proves the point that order does not come from chaos in an open system.

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