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![If you want to understand the Joe FlipperHead, Olivia Lamb, Karen Read and Aidan TurtleBoy Kearney chaos; FlipperHead (a guy named Nick from Philly) got confirmation Aidan recorded Karen Read. Then the recordings leaked. Basically, Olivia works for Aidan as a paralegal, now, but Olivia used to be close to Karen in the past (and Olivia and FlipperHead used to be close, as well, on a personal level). FlipperHead, for his part, is loyal to Olivia and Karen but FlipperHead doesn't like Aidan (much like other people close to Karen). Aidan, in turn, seems to be using Olivia to discredit Flipperhead (potentially without Olivia's permission). VIDEO TRANSCRIPT: [Opening remarks on social media and focus] Grant: [Lindsey Gaetani's] been talking about on social media, but let's get to that second. What I wanna start with—let me find the tab—I wanna start with the developments related to Aidan Kearney and Karen Read, okay? So we're gonna jump right into that, and what I have here is the actual discussion. Now, if you go on my X, you will be able to see the entire transcript. I'm gonna try to scroll with you as the video plays. It's a lot, okay? And then we're gonna do part two as well. So eventually, we're gonna hit part two of the transcript. I'm gonna pause, and we're gonna go to the second video. Now, this discussion—the reason why I wanna go over this—is I was listening to it, and I was like, "Wait a minute, I speak this language that they're all talking. I understand sort of the subtext of all of this, but they weren't really talking on the surface." It's a conversation between somebody named Chris, who Aidan Kearney calls a "koala," somebody named Joe Flipperhead—who's actually named Nick from Philadelphia, who was apparently close to a woman named Olivia Lamb, who is gonna come up in this as well. Now, Olivia Lamb did a lot of social media posts about the Karen Read and John O'Keefe trial on her profile on Twitter under Olivia. Now, then Olivia started—in a public announcement—saying that she started working for Aidan Kearney. And what you're gonna hear in this conversation is there's also a woman named—who else? There's a woman who's Australian that Aidan also knows named Lily. She introduces herself in the beginning, and then she's kind of the moderator-mediator. And then there's another woman that pops up in the middle named Erika Walsh. She only speaks two or three times. She's one of Turtle Boy's moderators. She interjects at two random times: one, when someone starts talking about Meredith; and two, when Aidan starts saying how bad the content of the conversation in question—that was allegedly recorded and sent to Karen Read, between Aidan and Karen—is for Karen. And then there's a third unknown voice that pops up at the end, who sounds like—it's a female, she's American. I don't know her voice, but it sounds like she's very close to Joe Flipperhead, this guy Nick. And she uses this phrase about Nick "leaving Olivia's ass" in a way that makes me think maybe this girl is close to Nick, and like, she got close to him after Olivia and Nick separated. Now you might say to yourself, "Oh dear God, why—first of all, Grant, why do you know all this?" These people post a lot; I don't know. Tracking this thing is something I've been doing for a while. So it's not like I went into it because I wanted to know who the hell Joe Flipperhead was, or Olivia Lamb was. They entered into a world that I knew a lot about because they were trying to cover this case. And so inevitably, I just had them on my radar, and when things pop up like this, I just connect the dots. [Background on Olivia Lamb] In terms of Olivia though—so she, I don't know. There was this weird situation, I think, at the end of trial one for Karen Read. So somewhere in—I don't know—late 2024, summer 2024 or so. Weird situation where Olivia kind of then, for a few months, wasn't around as much, or she was, but not as much. And then she came back around for Aidan and said she was working on his team or something. Now, Olivia—I don't think Olivia Lamb's necessarily a bad person. I think whoever she is, and whatever she's doing, is very intelligent. But if you kind of look into that family, her mom is named Christina Lamb, and her mom does boutique consulting for law firms. I think her mom might be a lawyer, but she doesn't really—I think the way that she does consulting is more like tactically how lawyers should think about how a case is presented in the public, et cetera, stuff like that. And you have to tie this into this Elizabeth Dombrowski person out of New York that runs this Good Counsel Legal Services that proclaimed that Jen Altman and whoever else were paralegals for Aidan. You see what I'm saying? And what I think Olivia's role is—I think she just does PR. She does some paralegal work clearly, but I think she's mostly like a PR specialist. But I think why there's so much obfuscation—and I'm giving you all this background, because the conversation you're about to hear makes no sense if you don't know all this background. The context there, I think, is that—I think Olivia is a person. Like, I think she is real. But I think the reason why there's so many smoke and mirrors is that she's a conduit for implausible deniability. In the world of public relations—especially this kind of public relations—is incredibly important. So I think she's like a conduit for more entrenched public relations interests, which—okay, fine. I don't see that as per se evil. I'm a critical theorist. So I study propaganda. So like, if you are doing anything that emerged from Edward Bernays's systemic weaponization of his uncle Sigmund Freud's study of the mass psychology of the mind—if you do any of that—you're inevitably gonna catch my attention. Not because I necessarily per se think it's evil, but because that's my wheelhouse. Like, I reconstruct public relations and then I figure out what's driving that. Okay. So she—Olivia—got on my radar because of that, not necessarily because she's evil. Same, because I never really saw it. Now maybe some of the witnesses in the trial would think differently, but that's not my role here. I am like—I'm an objective observer. And um, Olivia was never really cruel. Like she just does PR. So I wouldn't necessarily say like everything she did was like right. But if you look at her style, it's not polemical. It's not—it's mostly analytical. Okay. So that's not an aphoristic or manipulative or evil person really. That's a PR specialist. And this guy, Nick—very similar, Joe Flipperhead. Okay. If you look at his posts—like, I wouldn't exactly say he's a cruel human being, you know, like he memes and stuff. Okay. He's kind of like Dave Cullinane a little bit, but he's just like a human. And you can hear it in this conversation. Like Joe is the one who's really holding Aidan accountable. Joe Flipperhead—whose name is Nick—he's from Philly. And um, I noticed 'cause I watched the stream of them one time—I don't know—he seems all right. I don't have anything against him or Olivia. In fact, I think they did a damn good job, at least Joe. Because what you'll also see here is there's another subtext. What this conversation is about is an allegation that Aidan Kearney sent a recorded conversation to Karen Read—a conversation with her—and then someone—nobody knows who—sent the recording to Karen's lawyers, David Yannetti and Alan Jackson. Now, what's weird about this is that there's also—and I don't like, whatever, I guess it is what it is—but the host, one of the hosts, Chris, this Australian guy—he might be a New Zealander, I don't know. But anyway, he starts saying directly to Aidan, "Listen Aidan, you went to lunch with Meredith—this Turtle Boy's former girlfriend—but her name is Meredith O'Neill (meredith). She's a person; she has an existence outside of Aidan Kearney and whether—a lot of people, I think, rightfully so, will take issue with some of the things Meredith has posted. But that's for her soul to deal with. She has to reckon with it, reflect on it, whatever the fuck, okay? That's separate from; she exists outside of the fact that she used to date Aidan Kearney." And I just wanna make that as a blanket point that like Aidan Kearney does not own someone's soul because they had some connection to him at any point in time. These people are independent people who have their own lives. So Meredith O'Neill is her name. And Meredith—like, clearly something happened between Aidan and Meredith because over the past few weeks—like, first of all, there's some more subtext to this, which is Aidan's paralegal team before Olivia Lamb came on was Courtney Healy and this woman named Tina Murray. Tina Murray —I didn't even know THE NAME until two weeks ago—but I had seen her before because she had silver hair when she was in court one time. I had no idea who it was, but she was sitting next to Courtney Healy. Now, way back when Aidan Kearney was incarcerated in late 2023, early 2024—apparently these two women, Courtney Healy and Tina Murray, were very close to Aidan Kearney. Someone had his logins, allegedly. They were helping like post for him while he was in jail, et cetera. Now, there's time back to that as well. Jen Altman is a key figure in all of this. And the reason why is that Jen Altman was the reason that Aidan Kearney and Karen Read got hooked up initially through Natalie Wiweke-Bershneider or whatever her name is. Jen Altman was also among this weird group of people. It was Tina Murray, Courtney Healy, Jen Altman, I think, and maybe just them three, who had access to Aidan in jail on a paralegal list. And at one point, Tim Bradl, Aidan's lawyer, wrote down that Jen Altman was a lawyer. She got so mad that she messaged Bradl, and then those messages got leaked. So there's all this discontent brewing within Aidan Kearney's kind of like organization, if you wanna call it. I'd call it more like a—yeah, it's like a hierarchy. And like he's at the—it's like a politician almost, but he's not a politician. You have like a top person at the top, and then you have all these staffers, and you have to manage the staffers. That's what he's dealing with. And he's gotta keep everybody like in line because like at one person breaks—especially a key—all right, two things. One, there's a reason you compartmentalize information, and you're not gonna be able to get in these type of operations because nobody needs to know everything. If you did that, then everyone would be a weak link. The problem is though, in order to compartmentalize in a bureaucracy or a schema like this, you have to have some people who actually know what's going on. Those people are liabilities. They're weak links. If you have someone who is too close and they know how you compartmentalized information, they'll see the full picture. They're the weak link. That's Courtney Healy, Tina Murray, Jen Altman, Meredith, Lindsey a little bit. These people are the weak links for Aidan because they see the full picture, whether they are aligned with him, don't like him, etc. etc. It's just they're the biggest weaknesses for him because they see the full picture. That's why he tries to either control them—in my opinion—or destroy them. But Aidan's in a real tough spot here because you can't run that playbook on Karen Read. Clearly, these people are incredibly loyal to her. Flipperhead, Olivia, etc. They may have been helping Aidan, but they're incredibly loyal to Karen. Now, what I've always suspected is that the whole point of charging Aidan Kearney was—one, he did bad things to the witnesses in the retrial, Lindsey Gaetani. He did bad things allegedly. Okay, the grand jury indicted him. But I think Brian Tully and the MSP unit that investigated Aidan—they were more interested in two different goals. Okay, they had parallel objectives beyond just the criminal proceeding. One: get information about who the target of the federal probe was after August of 2023. And it was Tully's unit and Matthew Farwell related to the Sandra Birchmore murder coverup. Number two: I think Tully wanted—and Kate Peter and Marty Keach wanted—Aidan Kearney and Michael Morrissey wanted Aidan Kearney to flip on Karen Read. It was a pressure tactic. It was always just a pressure tactic. That's what I fully believe. Now, I'm not saying he didn't do bad things. I just believe in the mind of the DA—these people were using pressure tactics to get Aidan Kearney in a tactical position where he would flip. Why do I think this? Well, a few things. One: in the fall of 2023, between like August and November, Aidan Kearney didn't need an intermediary with Karen Read. Natalie was out of the picture, although I'm suspect, because there's this new text from Natalie from August saying that like she was still loyal to Karen Read—although ostensibly they had a falling out in June of 2023 because Natalie called Karen late at night and she was upset about it. I always thought that was BS. Now I know why it was BS because there's also a March 24 message about like Joe Warren and Natalie wanting to go to court. I just have this suspicion that Natalie was never really like against Karen. What Natalie was doing was using Turtle Boy as leverage with Karen's permission—using it's called a limited hangout. Limited information about Turtle Boy's culpability for witness intimidation to the MSP so that the MSP would trust Natalie—so that Natalie could relay information back to Karen about the ongoing investigation of Karen and Aidan for conspiracy under 2747 and witness intimidation under 26813B. Now they did try to eventually indict Karen on that in March of 2024 at No True Bill, but they can do it again. They got more evidence—the state in May of 2024 about Aidan saying in Facebook messages that one Karen told him not to go to Lindsey Gaetani's apartment on December 23rd, 2023, and then some other stuff—basically where Aidan was implying that someone told him to run Jen McCabe's license plates. Who would that be? Karen Read. He didn't say it but he implied it to Jenna Rocco and Amy D'Angelis and whoever else was in that internal chat that got leaked. So I really believe that the reason why Aidan Kearney was such a liability to Karen Read—and why she was saying it out loud—is that Karen Read always saw Aidan Kearney as vulnerable to flip. Why? Because Brian Tully did his homework—whatever his motives were—and he found a few things. And I think that him and Kate Peter profiled Aidan Kearney. That's why Kate Peter had some role in this—because they thought Kate Peter should really like Aidan in a lot of ways because he used to be colleagues. Two: I think the state police thought she saw his psyche—Aidan's psyche—and could help them profile him. Three: I think Kate Peter is very hard into the world, and Tully and those other people in the unit could say like, "Yeah, we're worried about Birchmore; we got to do damage control here. Nothing's really wrong with the O'Keefe death investigation," and just—they're going to find out about Birchmore—and Kate would go along with it. That's my opinion. But Tully gets this video of Aidan that he had sent to Lindsey—and it's out there on the internet. I don't want to play the content; it's sad. But this is why I think this is what was in the prosecutor's mind when they were going—and the MSP's mind—when they were going after Kearney. Yes, he did bad things—especially to people that knew the DA and Tully like McCabe, Jen McCabe, etc. But also Aidan was an Achilles heel for Karen. Think about MSP, right? And the way we're analyzing Aidan's weaknesses via weak links in the compartmentalization chain. Okay, flip it around and think about MSP thinking about Karen. What's a weak link in her compartmentalization chain? Aidan Kearney. Now, in that regard, Aidan Kearney—if he flips on Karen Read—guarantees a conviction for Karen Read for the state, even if they can't get her on John's death. It was a backup plan. Second to that, I think though—it's a dynamic situation—and that something must have fucking happened recently. Okay, and I've long thought—and we'll read Lindsey's post on this later because she was talking about it on Twitter overnight, and I was reading it this morning, and it made me think about this—I've long suspected that Kate Peter made a deal with Aidan Kearney in the past like 6-8 months. And the deal was involving the Norfolk DA and the people prosecuting Kearney, and the goal was to get Kearney to flip. And I also think Kate wants Kearney in the Netflix documentary that she's working on with Gretchen and Sandpaper—which, they don't really understand. Like, bro, you think you're getting my footage and me if you're going to enable Kate Peter and try to portray her as the Charlotte of the internet? What planet are you on? No. No, the answer is no. But anyway, I really believe that this deal was made because why else—and I think Karen found out about it—because why else would Karen—[we're going to—the conversation is going to clarify all this]—why else would Karen on Friday authorize Joe Flipperhead to release information that confirms that Aidan recorded Karen. Now, why Karen is not going to do this if she didn't hear the fucking recording? She's not a moron. She's a tactical genius. I'm telling you—I don't necessarily agree with all the things she's done. I personally think she's responsible for John's death, but like—she's a fucking tactical genius. And you have to understand in some sense—like she wouldn't do this unless it's real. Like someone sent her that recording, and I don't believe Aidan Kearney sent it to intermediaries because if Meredith is the closest person to him—or was—in the world, and he's going to lunch with her and will only play it for her allegedly—okay, there's no way in hell that he would just send it to people. I believe—whether through a fake account or otherwise—Aidan Kearney sent that to Karen's lawyers. That's just my opinion. I think there's strong reason for him to do it. It's a message. Okay. As a result, I think Karen Read doing this had to sense that this was the moment—like this was the moment where the decision was going to be made about whether or not he cooperated. And now is Aidan's kind of like signal flare that I'm thinking—from Karen Read's perspective—Aidan sending that recording to Jackson and Yannetti is a signal flare that if she doesn't act now, he's making the choice to flip on her. Okay, well, what did she just do? She in essence just put him in the worst position possible because he had to be able to—him and Kate Peter—had to sell the narrative in public that—and this is why I was on Lindsey's profile earlier. Let me see if I can bring that up—him and Kate Peter had to sell the narrative in public that Karen was worse than Aidan Kearney. All right, so let's take a look at Lindsey Gaetani's post here. Let's read this first and then let's look at the post from Kate Peter. So Kate Peter post last night: "Karen Read has killed a man before and to my knowledge, Aidan Kearney has yet to do anything like that. Take that as you will. Regardless, they're both giant DBAGs, but you can decide who is worse. My vote is Karen Read." That's Kate Peter—one of the closest people in the world right now to Brian Tully, Michael Morrissey, and the decision makers who were initially prosecuting Kearney—telling you in plain sight what's going on. So let's read Lindsey's post: "Yes, we already know a deal was made a long time ago. How cute of Kate trying to win over the turtle riders after she pretended she was still trying to put him in jail the past several months. Does anyone of the turtle riders know who Christine Gagne is? I have no idea who that is. Does anyone know who that is? That's the woman Kate Peter blamed for wiretapping charges with TB and the person she blamed when I asked her where her deleted Google Drive went with the state's evidence. Why would Kate blame this woman for deleting evidence when this woman's name was never mentioned during the grand jury or in a single email or police report? Interesting." Well, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. So we know Kate Peter was providing evidence to the grand jury. We know that from the recently released court documents and discovery in the Kearney criminal case. Why was—why is Kate Peter blaming someone? Who is Christine Gagne, who—why is Kate blaming her when Kate was the one who was—there's evidence that Kate was directly providing this material to Tully, who was taking it to the grand jury. And by the way, I want people to understand: my anger here is not because Aidan Kearney was prosecuted. I think he should be held accountable. My anger here is because the people prosecuting him had ulterior motives. Lindsey Gaetani didn't have an ulterior motive. She was victimized. She was an unwitting pawn in this proxy war between Karen and the DOJ—Karen and the DOJ and Aidan on one side, and the Norfolk DA and the MSP unit on the other. But instead of trying to prosecute Aidan, it was all tactical. And nobody was told—that's the worst part. And that's why I'm so upset about all of this, because it was a disgrace. It was a disgrace to the process. If you're going to hold someone accountable, do it. You don't use it as leverage to get someone else. And if you're going to do that, be open with the people who are victimized. Otherwise, you are going to build resentment. Why would you ever want to be in a situation where you have to handle a victim? Because if they were made aware of what was actually going on, they would be upset. That is a very prime example—on its face example—that something is very wrong. Not because Aidan Kearney is absolved of liability or because I think he did nothing wrong. Absolutely not. No. Other way around. But because that kind of behavior—given impunity basically, because there's a larger fish—it's an abuse of prosecutorial discretion, not because the prosecution exists. In my opinion, a grand jury indicted him; he should be prosecuted. That's what happens when indictments get handed up. But because the aim of the prosecution was not to seek justice—it was to get—it was to pressure Kearney to flip on Karen Read. [Transition to the conversation] Now, to bring this all back—because we got to go—I want to look at this conversation here. I want to actually listen to this chat a minute. I'm going to explicate; I'm going to try to tell you what happens. "Hi, Bunny Towel. Hi, Christina. No haircut. But guess if you want to send donations—today's a good day for that. We got to get Towel to the end of the month. Towel's not going to be able to move very much for the next few days. So I could use some food if you want to send me some gift cards. I just need some help. All right. I'm a little towel. I got a lot going on. And anyway, so I'll—I'm sitting in my chair. That's as much as I can do right now. I can talk; my brain works. I can sit in my chair. I'm not doing anything else, but I should eat at some point. Anyway, so we're going to listen to this conversation because you have to think of all that background when you're analyzing. Why right now? Okay, why would Karen Read tactically right now burn Aidan Kearney? Aidan Kearney supporters are very loyal, but a lot of Aidan Kearney's base are becoming alienated because either they care more about Karen Read than Aidan Kearney or because Aidan Kearney's been on this weird tear recently where he like been attacking middle-aged women who are most of his fans. All right. Most of his fans are middle-aged women. And he goes after people's looks like whatever. So there's already this alienation happening. I believe the only reason Karen Read does this right now is because what it did—and what it's doing to Aidan Kearney—is it's decimating his support. Okay. Well, why are you decimating his support? Why are you forcing people to pick sides? Why would you do that right now? Either [he] cooperated or he's about to. All right. Now Karen Read—if she was—here's my read of this—if Karen Read was just going to cooperate, she wouldn't have done this this way. Okay. I'm sorry. It would have been completely different. I don't believe that she would have done it this way. I believe she would have done it a completely different way. And the reason why I believe that—we're going to read the text from Karen before we start listening to this. By the way, you can see I have the video here for you. What happened? By the way, just to give you a little more context. So this X Spaces that we're going to listen to—I have the full 37-minute X Space. This X Space, okay—it was before the text messages from Karen to Joe Flipperhead got released. So what you have to realize is these texts you're seeing on the screen got released because of this conversation. You're going to hear Joe Flipperhead say it.](https://image.24vids.com/tw-1972809333571502470/amplify_video_thumb/1972808166204137472/img/XOOS2z0jZvC0WHzY.jpg)
!["Tell us this isn't true." "They had a live being out [near Area 51]." "There were human experiments that went on." 👽🛸 Roswell: A Non-Human Craft or a Darker Secret? 🤫😶 (Transcript is shorter than clip. I don't have room to type more in this post so I'll just wait for replies.) ~ Lex Fridman: "In your book on 'Area 51,' you propose an explanation that I think some people have criticized, at the very end. That this might have been a disinformation campaign from, I guess, Stalin, that the Roswell incident was a remotely-piloted plane with a quote 'grotesque, child-sized aviator.' Just looking back at all that now, years later, what's the probability that it's true? What's the probability it's not?" Annie Jacobsen: (AJ): "So, you know, I've never revealed who that source is." Lex: "Yes." AJ: "You know that? Want me to tell you?" Lex: "Okay, who was the source?" AJ: "So, before I say anything on that, let me speak to the question that you asked, right? So, you asked me, 'What's the probability that that is still standing as an idea, 12, 13, 14 years later,' right? So, I continued to work with that source for years, afterwards. We talked about this. Look, I mean, his whole family knew it was him. And I knew his family because I was an integral part of, you know, I was at his house, met all his kids, grandkids." Lex: "And we should say, the source is the main expert advisor behind the story that it was. Maybe you can explain what the story is that your report in the book, that it was a disinformation campaign created by Stalin to cause mass hysteria in the United States. The very kind that we've been speaking about with the CIA and so on." AJ: "Yes! Predicated on the narrative of the 'War of the Worlds,' right? And the 'War of the Worlds,' when it was a radio program in the United States, made people go crazy. 'Oh, my God, we're being invaded by aliens!' Well, the government was always interested in the story and Joseph Stalin was, too. We know that from declassified documents, right? "And so, the source told me that the reason for this program, and that the real Roswell crash remains, were in fact, it was a black-propaganda hoax infiltrated, you know, or rather, predicated at this idea that you were gonna overwhelm America's early-warning, air-defense system, cause mayhem and maybe be able to attack the United States. That was the plan. And Stalin was also messing with the United States, messing with Truman, who sort of, you know, turned his back on him, right? At Potsdam. "And so, this idea, and the reason that the source is important... And unlike, you know, a lot of people, 'I saw this, I saw that, I learned that.' Was, according to the source, once it was determined that this was a hoax and that Stalin was able to get a craft over the United States, and it crashed. And it had, you know, people inside of it, they were people that were sort of deformed and meant...surgically altered to look like aliens. "The United States government decided that it needed to know what on earth that was all about, and if it was possible for us to have the same program. This, according to this source, right? And so, it sounds preposterous, and if it was just someone saying, 'I...,' you might say, 'Well, it's ridiculous, get them onto another subject.' But, the difference was, is this source, who was very well placed, and friends with all of the other 75 people, you know, told me this as a confession, right? A real, tearful confession, because what he said is he was involved in the American program to do the same thing. And people died, because there were human experiments that went on." "And I write about this in the last 12 pages of 'Area 51.' It was an explosive, you know, revelation, and I felt very confident in writing this because the source wanted it written. Why? Because he said, 'I'm dedicated to my country. I know about being committed to national security, and this kind of thing must never happen. And if you give people too much power, they will take advantage of it.' And he wanted it on the record. "And his wife of 60 years did not know until after the book published. Nor did His children, okay? So, after the book published, I was called to his house and sat there with his family. And they said, 'Tell us this isn't true.' And he said, 'It is true,' right? (We need a tape of this confession or...for his family to confirm they heard this from him.) AJ: "Now that source is Al O'Donnell, who is the nuclear-weapons engineer who armed, wired and fired 186 nuclear weapons, okay? So if you wanna talk about someone..." Lex: "Woooooow." AJ: "You're the first person I've told that on the record, but it's kind of about time." Lex: "Woooooow. Well, you received a lot of criticism over this story, and it confused me why, because it's...given the context of everything you've described with the CIA and other intelligence agencies, it is reasonable that such action would be taken. AJ: "And, the source is extraordinarily credible, right? If you wanted to take the position, 'Well, that person isn't very reliable,' then you have to ask yourself, 'Why did they have Top-Secret clearances that are higher than any in the United States whatsoever?' Because he was responsible for arming nuclear bombs. He was called the trigger man. "And by the way, he told me that I could tell the world who he was. There's a lot of details that are really dark, involving that program. And when is it appropriate, right? Well, it feels appropriate now. First of all, because you and I have been talking for several hours. So this is what is truly a long-form conversation and it's the outcome of, you know, a very long time of my reporting, and also being judicious about what, you know, closing the loop on that, right? Because I do think it's important for people to know that sources have revelations." Lex: "And, like you said, the programs, both on the Soviet side, and the American side, conflicting, I think's the term we used previously? Ethically, morally, on all fronts. People have done some horrible things in the name of security. In your book, 'Surprise, Kill Vanish,' you write about the CIA." ~~~ Jeremy Kenyon Lockyer Corbell: "So, today, I want to focus on a really important story that you once told me, that has never been told all the way [from the] beginning, to all the way to the end. And I just think it's just so cool we get to do this today. So, the question I want to ask is: After you got hooked on the UFO thing, with Bob Lazar, and you as a journalist said, 'I'm gonna start getting sources.' Like, 12 people coming at you, people shut down by the government. You can tell that. But you finally, finally got to a credible individual who had direct, firsthand knowledge about UFOs, exploitation, reverse engineering, and beings. And, oh my God, I want the world to hear this story. Tell us the story." George Knapp: "I've shared some of it in very broad strokes over the years- little bits and pieces of it - without ever actually referencing, in my statements, the guy the source. But this will be the first time I've told it in totality. "And it takes me back to when I first started in this. It's 1989 KLAS-TV, we put together, we spent eight months working on this project called 'UFOs: The Best Evidence.' Nine-part series. It airs on television, it's the biggest thing that's ever been produced for local TV, to this date, and still. "And, along the way, as I'm trying to find...telling the story about Bob Lazar, and his allegations about what was out there at S-4, near Area 51 - recovered discs, alien technology being reverse engineered - I'm looking for people who would support that. And I found about two dozen people, witnesses who had worked out there, who had seen bits and pieces, who could corroborate parts of what Bob had said about these kinds of craft being out there in the Nevada desert. But there wasn't anybody big picture who knew as much as Lazar claimed to have known, so I was still looking for them. "In 1990, I started working on a follow-up series to Best Evidence, looking for new witnesses. And I got a hint from an elected official that I had known, I'd covered him in Nevada politics. He says, 'You know, you should talk to my dad one of these days.' 'Your dad?' 'Yeah.' And he told me what the dad's name was and what he had done, what job he had had. And I said, 'Ah.' So I started stalking the guy. I just started showing up at events where I knew he would be. One of those events was a reunion for employees of EG&G." Corbell (JC): "So I'm assuming that this source was working within EG&G in some capacity, which is, by the way, who Bob [Lazar] said, hired him to go out to Site-4, S-4 at Area 51. So you're like, 'Okay, I can now find out if this is bullshit, or if there's an element of truth to it.' Do I have that right?" Knapp (GK): "Pretty much correct, yeah. So, I'm looking for someone whose credentials are impeccable. Unlike Bob, whose credentials were questioned, and people still attack him on where he went to school and where he worked, and was he at Los Alamos? This guy is documentable. There's a paper trail of where he worked, what he did. There's no question that he was in a position to know. He was the first general manager of EG&G in Nevada. His name was Al O'Donnell, and he has a prominent family. "When I heard that EG&G was having a reunion, I went there. We took a camera [and I figured], 'This is a great chance to get him on camera before I start asking him the questions I really want to ask.'" JC: "And when you say he is a general manager, like, does that give him certain roles and responsibilities that would give him insight? Like, he's not a secretary, so what does that mean?" GK: "He's the boss. He was the boss of the Nevada office. And I'll tell you a little bit about EG&G. So, it was a company that was created in Boston, right around the end of World War Two. Al O'Donnell had been in the Navy, serving during the war. He got out of the Navy while the war was still underway and went to work for a company called Raytheon, which became this massive, gigantic defense contractor that's still around today, still in Nevada in fact." JC: Yeah, they've got a big connection to the UFO topic, right? But, when you say Boston, like, where in Boston was it created?" GK: "Well, MIT is where the company was born. Edgerton, Germeshausen and Grier were the three guys, the EG&G in that. They were at MIT. Scientists, engineers, they created this company there. And Al O'Donnell, who had been working for Raytheon, working on the Manhattan Project. He didn't know he was working on the Manhattan Project, but they were building these devices, complex triggers, that allowed them to detonate nuclear weapons. He learned later what he was doing was part of the Manhattan Project. "He goes to MIT, starts working with EG&G. Their company in those days had, I think, 15 employees, Al said. So it was a very small startup. But it suddenly exploded because the American atomic program exploded in those years. In 1950, Harry Truman decides that we need a permanent, nuclear testing site somewhere in the continental U.S., so they looked at a bunch of places, and they settled on Nevada. "Prior to that, Al O'Donnell had been sent out to the Pacific. They had five of these massive, atomic bomb tests out in the Pacific, and they decided to move it into a continental U.S. location and Nevada's Test Site - it was called the Nevada Test Site in those days - was chosen. Al O'Donnell leads the exodus from Boston, out to Nevada. They start hiring engineers and scientists, physicists and other security, spies." JC: "What are they working on at this time when they make that move?" GK: "Atomic bombs. They're building, testing atomic bombs. EG&G was a really precise organization that was created in order to detonate, measure and photograph atomic weapons. If you look in the history of photography, you'll see some of these amazing photos that they took of, you know, water drops dropping in water and...they're pretty famous shots because of these cameras that they developed. And it was perfect for use and testing atomic weapons and documenting what the process was. "So, EG&G comes out to Las Vegas, they are the managers of the Nevada Test Site. They, subsequently, years later, become the managers of Area 51 when it opens in 1955. So Al O'Donnell is the top guy. He oversees the nuclear testing program out there, manages it for EG&G, works with the Atomic Energy Commission. He has a Top-Secret security clearance and he can go anywhere and see anything. There's, basically, no restrictions, nothing that is outside of his ability to find out and see." JC: "So, this is an impeccable resume. This is somebody who was in position to know, and would know if someone like Bob Lazar was telling the truth or not telling the truth. I find it, personally, humorous that EG&G was, its genesis, its seed, came from MIT, right?" GK: "So, late 1990 or early 1991, I'd have to look up the dates. But somewhere in there is this event, this EG&G reunion. I go there, we got a camera, I interview Al O'Donnell, introduce myself, and say, 'Hey, I'm really interested in this, can we continue this conversation?' So he invites me to his home. He says, 'Come on over, we'll arrange to come over on a Saturday or something. We'll sit down, I'll go through my scrapbooks and show you some documents and memorabilia and photos from that era.' I was like, 'Great.' "So I go to his house and meet this wife. And we sit down, he opens up these big scrapbooks, and he starts showing me all the stuff that he had done. Photos that had been taken out in the proximity of these gigantic nuclear tests. They had great stories about the camaraderie that developed among the engineers and scientists. And he's going through all this stuff and showing me all this. And I love it, I loved every bit of it. I've never had a bad day at the Nevada Test Site, by the way. Every time I've gone out there to do a story, it's just a terrific way to spend some time." JC: "Secrets should be kept, secrets are kept, and you are a proponent of keeping secrets when it's that kind of thing." GK: "Sure, absolutely. And I respected the boundaries that they set up for us in doing these kinds of stories. So I did go out to the Nevada Test Site a lot over the next 40 years or so and put together a lot of different stories. And they knew of my interest in that area that's just outside what the Nevada Test Site, a place called Area 51. In 1955, Area 51 was, basically, created and EG&G got the contract to manage Area 51, and had kept it for the next 30, 35 years. So, whatever went on out there, they had an inside knowledge of what was going on." JC: "So, you meet this guy, Al O'Donnell, for the first time when he's at this public thing. You probably say something like, 'Your son told me to talk to you,' or something. Whatever. It ends up, he invites you to his home, and you're going through scrapbooks, and he's showing you all this atomic testing stuff that he was involved in. GK: "Yeah, and I'm telling him, 'Boy, this is really interesting. That's fascinating. I'd love to do a story on it.' And after we're there for maybe two hours, he closes this one big scrapbook and he goes, 'You're not here to talk about this, are ya?' I said, 'Well, not exactly.' He says, 'I know what you're here to talk about. I know what you want to ask about.' And right about that point, his wife walks in and she says, 'Don't start telling them that stuff! Don't even tell him!' And he kind of joked about it.' JC: "What were you there to talk about?" GK: "UFOs, UFOs. Area 51, Bob Lazar, crashed saucers, reverse engineering, to see if he had any knowledge of that, because I'd been led to believe that he did. So he closes that book and he says, 'We'll have we'll get together another time and we'll talk about it in private.' And over the course of the next two years or so, he and I would meet at coffee shops and talk about it. And I would ask him questions, and really, it was like pulling teeth. He wanted to tell me stuff but he made me work at it." (AJ says his family was there for the confession. Knapp has over two years of meetings with him. A bit confusing.) GK: "And the condition was, I couldn't take any notes. I couldn't record it, I couldn't take any notes. So each time I'd meet with him, I'd rush back to my car and start scribbling notes on pieces of paper so I'd remember everything that he said. And the story that he told me, that evolved over those couple of years was pretty fantastic. "He said that they did have a flying saucer that had been recovered from New Mexico. I think he indicated that it had been taken from New Mexico to Wright Patterson Air Force Base, which is... He never said Roswell, but I think it was the Roswell incident is what he [was] talking about. And it confirmed some of the details about what we know, likely, happened with the Roswell craft." JC: "When he's telling you, 'We have recovered a craft,' did he say it like, this is secret, don't tell anybody?" GK: "Yeah, it was just for my knowledge, my background and information. It wasn't a story I could do then. We were negotiating about how, or when, or if I could ever use that information or make it public. He told me the details about this craft. He said that it had been stored at Indian Springs. Indian Springs is an Air Force Base that's been there for a long time. It's now called Creech. Indian Springs existed before Area 51 was made. "But he says it was there, they kept it there. It might have been in an underground facility, I'm not quite sure. But then when Area 51, after it opened in 1955, they moved it to an adjacent facility. He didn't say it was S-4, he didn't say it was Papoose, but I think that's what he's talking about. Papoose Lake is where Bob Lazar said he worked, and where they had built nine hangars underground, disguised to look like the desert, and where they had other recovered craft. "He says they worked on this recovered craft, reverse engineering, trying to figure out how it worked, who built it. Whether or not they could duplicate the technology because, apparently, they thought this was pretty advanced, and they'd like to be able to build more of 'em. "And he says it was a very closed program, very small. It was only, I think, five of them that were aware of it, at least in the early stages, that were working on this project. And it was very hush hush, and they didn't share it with anybody else in the company, or anybody else in the area, or the military. They just kept it to themselves. "So, after we're having these meetings - and I go back and write down all these notes and stuff, details about what he had shared with me - we have another meeting at a coffee shop, and I said, 'Well gosh, you know, aren't you worried that it would get out, that the word would get out?' "And he says to me, 'We were worried It would get out?' That's right. 'I mean, what...it? What do you mean, it?' It. Meaning a live being, they had a live being out there. I go, 'You had a live being, an alien as well?' [O'Donnell said], 'Tell you the truth, we didn't know what it was.' I said, 'You know, maybe it came from millions of miles away, out in space, and you're keeping it in a cage near Area 51?' He said, 'To tell you the truth, we couldn't communicate with it in the beginning. We didn't know what it was, we didn't know where it was from, and we didn't know what to do with it.'" JC: "When Al O'Donnell says to you, 'We had a live alien, a being,' obviously from another world, what was your feeling?" GK: "Well, I was overwhelmed, because it was, in effect, confirmation of things that I had come to believe, because of the reporting we'd already done. And then the evidence of cover ups and lies that had been told to the public. Here's this guy in a high position, with a high security clearance, telling me that it was true. That they really did have a craft and they had a being. "My second feeling was, one of overwhelming sadness for the being, whatever it was, you know, that was kept out there. I asked him, you know, what had happened to it, what became of it? He says, 'I don't know. I don't know whatever happened to it.' But it was out there for a while, alive, and eventually they figured out a way to communicate with it. "And so I asked him, 'Well, what did it look like?' And he made me guess, as he did with all these questions. He made me guess. He said, 'Well, it kinda looks like a certain political candidate.' I said, 'Well, who? A political candidate? Who?' And at the time, Ross Perot was running for president. He said, 'It looks like Ross Perot. A little skinny guy with a big ears and tiny head.' Not a classic Gray-looking alien, but a very odd-looking creature with really big ears, that looked like Ross Perot. And I laughed. "And so we had these conversations for a while, and I was blown away by the information that he shared. I took all these notes. I was hoping that someday, I might be able to get the information out. And I asked him, 'Look, you're getting up there in age. If I can't record something with you, could you record a statement to the effect of telling me the story on camera, and then when you pass on, I can have the tape?' And he said, 'Yeah,' he would do it." JC: "You know, look, I've heard a lot of wild stories that I can't verify. A guy's telling you something, and you get a sense as a journalist, when you go down a road with somebody, and you take your time and you vet it... Did you feel...I mean, is there any world where he's trying to f*ck with ya? Or is there a world where he's trying to, you know, dissuade...kind of put crazy information into your brain? Like, how did you feel when he was telling you this? Was he like, straight with you?" GK: "Yeah, he was very straightforward. And again, this was not information he was giving up, willingly. I mean, I had to really dig and coax and arm twist to get him to cough things up. And it was very slow-going over about a two-year period, maybe a little bit longer. And I know that this...you always have to be wary of people with different agendas and people that just make stuff up. I didn't get that sense from him because of his standing in the community. He had shared this story with members of his own family." JC: "And that's why they came to you, is because they kind of [gave] you a tip. And these members of his family, they're serious people, too." GK: "Yeah. One of his sons is an FBI agent, or was, he's passed on now. One was an elected official in Nevada. That was the one that gave me the tip." JC: So, I just want to nail this [down] so I understand. You were approached because he had shared this with his family, privately, and then you had to kind of coax to get through to him about the story?" GK: "Right." JC: "I think that's important because look, these things don't happen, like, people [don't] just come to us and say, you know, crazy stuff, and we're like, 'Hh, yeah, cool. Sounds good.' Like, the dynamic of that, socially, as a journalist, like getting in there, taking time. You know, we have to verify if what he said is true, and there are some major bombs coming about that. But it's like, that process is so important. "So here you are, you're sitting with him, he tells you now, they have a live alien. And you felt sad because you're an animal-rights activist, you love animals. I know with your cats at home and you've done horse stories and all the stories about like, the inhumane stuff to animals. So it made you personally sad, makes me sad, too now thinking about it." GK: Yeah. Well, we had these series of meetings, and then the last time we met, after he'd agreed to go ahead and record a tape - and give it to me after making an arrangement so I got it after he passed on - he said that he had been told to not talk to me anymore. He said he had been given a warning [and] it was not a good idea for him to talk to me any more about anything. Not just that topic, but anything." JC: "Well, who knows that you're talking? Who would warn him?" GK: "I don't know. I don't know. But you recall, back in those days, there was surveillance. We had our phones tapped at KLAS-TV. There were guys following us around. Me, Bob Lazar, Gene Huff, maybe Robert Bigelow." JC: "People were also coming to your news station, OSI. And they would come in and try to like, get to you and then they'd show you their card...and take it back. And you know your phones are tapped. So it's like, because of this story, all of a sudden you're on high alert. So, anybody could have called him, been watching you, had meetings with the guy. So what you're saying is one day he just said, 'I can't...I'm not allowed to talk to you any more.'" GK: "Yeah, I've been told not to talk to you anymore. I've been told not to."](https://image.24vids.com/tw-2079616298435400152/amplify_video_thumb/2079612656366112768/img/mxq1uM4Cp0iG8pyw.jpg)
!["If the truth were to come out...it would pull the rug out from under everything, the whole fabric of society would come unraveled." ~Herrington (allegedly) 🛸 Lying to Protect the UFO Cover-Up? 🛸 (I wanted to get this RLAP (REALLY Long-Ass Post, which is in two parts) out before Jesse Michels (AA) puts out his interview with Herrington. Watch the video I clipped from AA, read the transcript from a few other podcasts, and tell me if you think Friedman is lying. I just don't see it. Herrington denies any of this happened, so somebody IS lying, misremembering, or Herrington was pulling Friedman's leg about underground briefings, crying himself to sleep, and aliens. Using my judgment, and in my opinion: I believe Friedman.) "Aliens are real, they're here, and I've seen them." ~John Herrington, Former Secretary of Energy (allegedly) "My emotional take on this is that there is a darkness to this, and it's dangerous." ~Friedman If Disclosure happens... ⬇️ "We are in a God-fearing country. If you take that away, if you pull that out from underneath everyone, you're gonna lose a huge portion of the population." ~Herrington (allegedly) ~ (Just know that Herrington has denied (to Ben Schreckinger) that any of what Friedman claims, actually happened. And that includes having Friedman drive his car across the country. I'll include that in Part 2. And again, Jesse Michels recorded an interview with Herrington and that's about to be uploaded, so we'll see what he says there.) ~The Man Who Cried Himself to Sleep~ (I stole that from the Sound, Light & Frequency podcast) It’s the summer of 1981, and Brent Friedman (Brent Friedman) is eighteen and preparing to leave for college at UCLA in the fall. Before heading out, he takes on a cross-country drive - from the San Francisco area to Virginia, near Washington, D.C. - as a favor and a way to earn some extra money. The trip is for his former neighbor, John Herrington, who had lived next door to him during his childhood, from ages six to twelve. During those years, Herrington became more than just a neighbor - he was a father figure. (These quotes are from the Sound, Light and Frequency podcast: The Man Who Cried Himself to Sleep ⬇️) Friedman makes the drive and arrives in Virginia and meets up with Herrington, who says he's, "working at a very high-level in the Reagan administration" Friedman: "[Herrington] and Reagan were quite close." Bryce Zabel: "Am I correct in saying, though, that his actual job description at that time was the Assistant to the Undersecretary of the Navy?" Friedman: "I believe so, yes." (That does not appear to be accurate.) Friedman: "He did have an official title. I know that, at the time, he was working on something behind the scenes with the ABSCAM situation. But, what he ends up telling me is that he has a very high-level position and, in fact, his clearance is higher than the president's." (Herrington wasn't sworn in to Assistant Secretary of the Navy until October of 1981 and wasn't sworn in to Secretary of Energy until February of 1985. So what position allowed Herrington to have a high clearance and access to so much information, before the summer of 1981? In 1980, Herrington was the advance man for Reagan and his presidential campaign. What does an advance man do?) From Political Dictionary dot com... "The 'Advance man' is someone who makes arrangements and handles publicity for the candidate during a campaign. "The advance man travels to a location ahead of the candidate’s arrival and sets everything up so that things run smoothly for the candidate’s media appearance, or for whatever event the candidate is participating in." (Would an advance man be briefed about our country's biggest secrets? I don't think so. Is there a detail of this story that's missing? Maybe Herrington had some other job that required him to have access to all this information? I found this excerpt from The American Presidency Project website, which includes some further background info. on Herrington.) "In 1967 [Herrington] opened his own law office in Walnut Creek, Calif., specializing in real estate, corporate law, taxation, and contracts. He was recently involved in property management. "During the 1980 Presidential campaign, Mr. Herrington was a full-time volunteer advance man with the Reagan for President committee. Following the Republican National Convention he was named western regional director for advance. ⬇️⬇️⬇️ "[On May 6th, 1981] - The President...announced the appointment of John S. Herrington to be Deputy Assistant to the President for Presidential Personnel." According to AI (which pulled three sources), that position, "manages the selection, vetting, and recommendation process for political appointees across federal agencies. They oversee talent recruitment, security clearance coordination, and strategic staffing to fill executive branch positions with qualified individuals aligned with the administration's goals." (So, perhaps it was in that ⬆️⬆️⬆️ position where Herrington was thoroughly briefed, leading up to his conversation with Friedman?) ~~~ In the interview with Ross Coulthart (and in other interviews), Friedman said that when he went to Herrington's house that night... Friedman: "I saw him come home from work in a black Lincoln Town Car, with two Secret Service guys attending to him, a briefcase handcuffed to his wrist [which] was brought into the house, taken right into his office where the briefcase goes into a wall safe. He was a real estate lawyer when I grew up with him. "[Herrington] says, 'Let's you and I go out onto the veranda and catch up.' Now, when I was growing up, he was a strict Calvinist. He didn't drink, he didn't swear, and really fit. A man's man. Well, when I saw him that night, he looked haggard, he looked like he had the weight of the world on him. He also brought a bottle of Jim Beam out to the backyard and he was pouring himself what I later learned were two fingers, two little glasses, you know? "After we caught up on my life, I said, 'What is your job? What was the whole thing with the black Town Car and the briefcase?' He said, 'Oh, I can't talk about it. I'm working for the President in a special capacity and it's all highly classified.' "A couple of years earlier, our family had been contacted by, I believe it was either the CIA or the NSA, or something, and asked a bunch of questions about him, I guess as he was being vetted for this job. But we didn't know what the job was, we just knew that it was some government position and they wanted to know things about him. "Again, he was not forthcoming with what the job was, but the more I pushed him and the more he had to drink, he eventually said to me, 'Well, look, the fact of the matter is, you know, to get this job, I had to be briefed for a number of months in an underground facility in West Virginia.' And I was like, 'Wow, that sounds intense!' And he goes, 'Yeah, I used to cry myself to sleep every night.'" (I've been tweeting about this story for 4+ years, and anybody who hears that part can't help but wonder: What the hell did they (allegedly) tell him?!) Friedman: "Now, again, a man's man. When I was growing up, the thought of him crying once in his life was unthinkable to me. The idea of him crying every night, I was shocked. And I said, 'Well, what would cause you to do that?' And he said, 'Brent, this is not the world I thought I was bringing my daughters into.' "Now, think about that. You're 18 years old, and this man who you look up to, that you revere, is telling you this. All I could say was, 'Well, what about me? I'm in this world, too! I need to know something.' And he said, 'Well, I can't really go into that. This is like, highly-classified material.' And I said, 'John, I'm sitting here. Like, you've just put me...puts the edge. I need to know something.' "And he said, 'Well, okay, I'll tell you what. I know, when you were growing up, you were into science fiction and comic books and all that stuff. Well, aliens are real, they're here, and I've seen them.' And he said it with just the most casualness, like just throwing me a bone. Like, okay, can we stop talking now?" ~~~ (Was Herrington just pulling Friedman's leg since he knew of Friedman's interest in Sci Fi? Back in 2018, Zabel gave a lecture at the International UFO Congress, and he talked about this story.) Zabel: "This the quote that Brent gave me. Herrington said, 'There is alien life on Earth, I've seen it.' And Brent said, "Is it alive?" And Herrington said, "That depends." (Regarding the question of whether the alien life Herrington allegedly saw was alive or not, none of the current interviews with Friedman contain the Herrington answer, "It depends." Is that an accurate quote from Friedman or did Zabel get it wrong? If he really said, "It depends," that has the potential to make things even more interesting. ⬇️) ~Back to the Coulthart Interview~ Friedman: "And I kind of was taken aback, and I said, 'What do you mean? Are they alive?' And he said, 'Um, I can't say.' I said, 'You can't say, or you won't say?' And he said, 'I can't say.' (He couldn't say because he wasn't allowed, or he couldn't say because "it depends" on what one means by "alive"? I may be making this too complicated, and I hope Brent chimes in with some comments in the replies. Okay, he DID chime in and address it during the "Sound, Light & Frequency" followup podcast on March 22 entitled, "More on the Story — J.C. and Herrington.") Friedman: "Did he say he can't say because he didn't know, or...this is not a life-form as we know it? There's a lot of ways to interpret this." ~Back to the Coulthart Interview~ Friedman: "And I said, 'Well, okay, hold on a second. How is it that everyone doesn't know the truth?' And he said, 'Oh, lots of people know the truth. You can walk into any bookstore and you're gonna find all sorts of books that contain all sorts of truth. And right next to them, you'll find books that we published, that are full of lies and disinformation. And he said, 'There's a multi-billion dollar campaign to keep this covered up.'" (If that's true, what I wouldn't give to know which UFO books were put out by the government (or whomever is doing it) as disinformation and to lead us astray. Any channeled books?) Friedman: "And I remember in 1981, I was not a great student so I don't know that I ever heard this in high school. I don't think I'd heard the word billion before. I knew it sounded big, but I didn't even know what that meant." ~ From Coulthart's interview of David Grusch in June of 2023 Grusch: "There's a sophisticated disinformation campaign targeting the U.S. populace, which is extremely unethical and immoral. This has leaked like a sieve for decades, but it was a very sophisticated, disinformation campaign where, you know, they have allowed some of the truth to come out through some of their trade crafts. But they've disenfranchised people, they've stigmatized it, they made it like a, this total like wacky thing to talk about. So anybody who may come forward with that kind of information is looked like a, you know, total tinfoil hat guy, because it's a perfect amalgamation of disinformation to just make it look crazy." ~ (From the Sound, Light & Frequency podcast...) Friedman: [Herrington told me], "if the truth were to come out - and by the way, we don't know the full truth, but if what we knew were to come out - it would pull the rug out from under everything, the whole fabric of society would come unraveled." (Back to the "Reality Check" interview.) Friedman: "And I said, 'Well, you know, hold on a second. So you're telling me that there's aliens, there's a big cover-up. Is this never gonna come out?' And he said, 'Well, you know, maybe in our lifetime. Only if it has to, though.' "And I said, 'Well, I don't understand why.' And he said, 'We are in a God-fearing country. If you take that away, if you pull that out from underneath everyone, you're gonna lose a huge portion of the population. And if you do that on a global level, and you take away what people believe in, you are going to disrupt the one thing that holds the whole world together, which is the global economy.'" ~~~ In "The Age of Disclosure," we were told this: "One very distinctive moment for me was briefing then Secretary of Treasury, Steve Mnuchin. I got through my briefing, and at the end of the brief, he sat back in his chair and he said, 'You know, Jay, you may wonder why I asked for this briefing.' And he said, 'What are the economic impacts of the President going to the microphone and telling the world we’re not alone? I have to think about those kinds of impacts in order to prepare, if the President were to make that move.'" ~Jay Stratton ~ Friedman: "There's a key detail here that I think adds to this conversation. One of the things that did happen is, towards the end of the conversation, after I was processing all of this, I said, 'Well, I guess now I understand why you cried yourself to sleep every night.' And he goes, 'No, Brent, you don't understand. This stuff we're talking about here, this was day three. So, he was putting into perspective this alien thing, that we're trying to get to the bottom of, was this one small, little area that he had been disclosed about." (This is a new and important detail that I didn't have when I first started posting about the Herrington story in 2022. Back then, I thought Herrington cried himself to sleep every night, for weeks and weeks, due to information he was briefed on about aliens. But with these new details added, that doesn't seem to be the case.) Friedman: "And so, I think that's really the only way to make sense of his statement for me. Is that, the truth has to be about something much bigger than just non-human intelligence. I think it probably goes to the nature of reality itself." (I love the nature of reality discussion but there's really no way to know what made Herrington cry himself to sleep every night for two months unless he decides to surface and share that information with us. In the meantime, our minds will come up with all types of possibilities and scenarios... We live in a simulation, and there's no afterlife. Nazis still exist, rule the world with high-tech, and we have to do what they tell us or they'll wipe us out. We're going to get hit with a comet or asteroid in the near future and life will reset on this planet like it has in the past. Artificial Intelligence will rule the world in the near future and humanity will slowly die off. Feel free to add to this small list... ~~~ Coulthart: "Brent, have you gone back to John Herrington in the interceding years and tried to extract more from him? Because, I mean, what I can tell our audience is, I do know that a formal approach has been made to John Herrington by people from the Congress who are investigating this matter. And they've been unsuccessful in getting John to speak further on it. Have you had any further conversations with him since? I appreciate he's still alive, he's a very elderly man now. I can imagine, if he did sign some kind of secrecy oath, he's probably trying to protect you by not talking about it any further." Friedman: "Yeah, this is a sensitive area in that, you know, when Bryce and I talked about doing this podcast, or even before I talked to you, I really had to make a decision about, did I want to drag him out of the shadows, essentially? He was a family friend. Granted, you know, over the years, we kind of drifted apart, our families, but my mom still stayed in touch with them. And when I said that I was gonna do this, and I asked her at the time, you know, 'Can you put me in touch with John?' And she was adamant about, 'Leave the man alone. If he wanted to talk about this, he already would have talked about it.' And so, I really had to, then, at that point, make a decision: Do I wanna go forth and talk about this thing that happened? Or not?" (He already spoke about it, publicly, back to 2018, but not to this extent and not to such a large audience.) Friedman: "And I made the choice that I felt my story was important enough to put out there. And because it was also formative to how 'Dark Skies' came about, which led to the guy making us a deal proposal, I just felt like I'm gonna have to put all of this out in the open and take the consequences as they come. "So I have not spoken with John since then. I would have to then have a break in my relationship with my mom, she's really drawn a line in the sand. But, you know, honestly, I'm living in this world right now where, at any time, I would expect, possibly, him calling me and saying, 'What the hell are you doing?'" (There's an important detail of this story that Friedman did not share in the Coulthart interview and I will get to it in a second.) Coulthart: "You say it was day three, and he got told about aliens, but he was there for a hell of a lot longer than three days. What do you think it might be that he was told that is so confronting that the poor gentleman was crying himself to sleep at night?" Friedman: "Well, I'm gonna say this through the filter of what I knew about John Herrington. And he was an amazing father. And so, in my mind, anything where he felt that his daughters would not be safe would be something that would probably cause him to cry himself to sleep at night, right? The inability to protect your child would be haunting, would be devastating." (Speculate away.) Friedman: "And so, I think if you look at it through that lens, you have to think, okay, then this is...we live in a very tenuous situation where, seemingly, at any time, higher forces may be able to do things to our loved ones, right? And there's nothing we could do about it. That's what I take away from this. Now, how all of that happens, who these predatory forces are? I don't have the answer to that. But my emotional take on this is that there is a darkness to this, and it's dangerous." (I really have no idea what that could mean. What kind of higher forces? Human, bad actors? The intelligence behind the phenomenon, which is NOT about ET but more about non-physical beings John Keel labeled Ultraterrestrials?) ~This is from the Lehto Files podcast~ Friedman: "As he was being disclosed to, he used to cry himself to sleep every night. And if you think about it, I don't think any one of us, or anyone in your audience, if someone said, 'You know what? Aliens are real. They're here, we're not alone.' Would you cry? I don't think so. I think you'd be like, 'Okay, I know that. Like, now I feel vindicated.' Would you cry if somebody said, 'Oh, the aliens, they're hostile, and they could come and get us at any time'? No, you'd be like, vigilant. You'd be like, 'Okay, well, I gotta prepare for this.' What would make a man of such character cry every night? I think it has to be something bigger than aliens, and that we're not alone. I think it has to go to the nature of reality and that that we live in a very tenuous existence that is much more complicated than any of us can really comprehend. And when you are given that truth or when you're exposed to as much of it as possible to convey in words, it must be shattering. It must be shattering." (This is the part that I wish Friedman would have talked about in the Coulthart interview because I feel it's important. ⬇️ A reminder for readers: In the Coulthart interview, Friedman said, "I have not spoken with [Herrington] since [1981]. I'm living in this world right now where, at any time, I would expect, possibly, [Herrington] calling me and saying, 'What the hell are you doing?'" But, from the Sound, Light and Frequency podcast... Zabel: "Did you have any contact with John Herrington after this event in 1981?" Friedman: "Oh, that's a good question. No, not...in person. But, while we were in production on 'Dark Skies (which aired from 1996-1997),' I remember one day my assistant came in and said, 'Oh, you got something in the mail.' Which was weird because who would send mail to the production office for me? But I opened it up and it was one of those buck slips. Remember those kind of like, long vertical things? It said, 'From the desk of John Herrington.' "And he wrote out, in longhand: 'Congratulations on finally getting your story out there.' "And I thought, wow, I had never considered it because he said, 'Go ahead and tell your story, no one's gonna believe you.' But clearly he wasn't upset that I was, you know, had 'Dark Skies' on the air and it was inspired by our conversation." (If he clearly wasn't upset about Friedman getting his story out there, via "Dark Skies," which was inspired by their 1981 conversation, why is Friedman worried that he's gonna hear from Herrington any day, where he'll ask, "What the hell are you doing?" That question might be answered as we keep going.) Friedman: "But, it also made me realize, at that time, is it possible that he told me this story as part of the disinformation program? And, as hard as it is for me to admit that... Because this was a man that I trusted and I respected, I idolized to a certain degree. To think that he would, potentially, be using me - me, an 18-year-old kid who's, I'm nobody - as part of the disinformation campaign? It hurts to even think of that, and I don't believe it. But I have to acknowledge that that is one possible explanation." ~~~ I want to add one final thing from the SL&F podcast... Zabel: "I asked Grusch if he had ever heard of the name John Herrington. And Dave Grusch...looks at me and goes, 'Yeah, I've heard of Herrington." And I said, 'Well, what what do you know about him?' And I think he said something like, 'I really can't talk about that.' "This year, it's 2025, I get, first a message, and then a call from Ross Coulthart. And I believe I can say this because, you know, he didn't swear me to secrecy. It was a public...I mean, he was calling me to ask me something. He said that Grusch, who was now working for [Rep. Eric Burlison]" wanted Ross to ask me [Zabel] something. "And what Ross asked me was, 'Do you think your friend Brent would get in a car and drive John Herrington to Washington DC to testify?' "I almost fell off my chair when I heard that. And I also found the irony, which I'm sure you can find, which as an 18-year-old, you drove a car across America to DC, right? To get your briefing. And now, all these years later, they want you to drive the man who gave you the briefing to Washington, DC so he can give another briefing to Congress. Okay, that's interesting enough. "I said, 'I don't think Brent's probably going to go along with that, but I'll ask him. You know, I mean, it wasn't untoward for Ross to ask for that. I mean, of course, that's reasonable. But then he said, 'Well, what do you think his reaction would be if he was subpoenaed?' And I don't think he was talking about [Herrington], I think he was talking about you at that moment." (Why subpoena a second hand witness (Friedman) when you can get the real thing in Herrington? And why not fly an elderly Herrington across the country instead of having Friedman drive him on a several-day road trip? Were they afraid something might happen to him?) Friedman: "Well, I have to tell you, when you called me about that Ross conversation and the word subpoena was tossed out, I started to feel queasy at the thought of it. The thing is, I have no problem going under oath, right? But at that point, we had already decided we were going to do this podcast. And I thought, you know, if I'm gonna tell my story, my stories, honestly, I want them to be under my terms, right? For us, right? Not with congressional investigators. peppering me with things and making me look like an idiot, right? Which I can pretty much guarantee would happen." (I can pretty much guarantee that that would NOT happen. None of the hearings have been adversarial or made the witnesses look bad. The hardest question they could ask is: "Is it possible Herrington was making up a story to entertain you or feeding you disinformation?" And Friedman could say, "I don't think so, but I certainly can't rule it out.") Friedman: "And I thought, I wanna tell this story, I wanna tell a bunch of stories because, at the end of the day, this Herrington story is, effectively, the backstory of Sound, Light and Frequency. But there's much more to Sound, Light and Frequency than even just this story." Continued in Part 2](https://image.24vids.com/tw-2107369637843435897/amplify_video_thumb/2107369370691510272/img/FlE97xjCTqhdHGtM.jpg)
!["[My mom], she, honestly, started crying." ~BF Someone Is Lying "I'm willing to do [a lie detector test]...if people are that interested in whether this happened or not." ~BF ~ John Herrington (JH): "I am now beginning to think we got a Fauci syndrome underway in some of the area you're working." (Whenever JH had the chance, he made things political. Fauci, appointed by Biden = Bad. Clapper ("not a name I respect.") and John Brennan (Jesse: "also a mixed bag" JH: "Likewise"). Both were appointed by Obama. But who gives a f**k? Both have spoken about UFOs, with Brennan saying UFOs may constitute a different form of life and Clapper, according to Grusch, may have a managed a UFO crash retrieval program. Plus, JH added that, "I think [Trump is] gonna go down as a historic president. What he's doing is incredible.") ~ JH: "I watched one of your guys sit here, who I know, and I talked to you about this, who absolutely fabricated a total story." (He knows him? I thought he only knew him as a baby?) Jesse (Jesse Michels): "So tell the audience what you're talking about." JH: "You had a guy interviewed who used to be a neighbor of ours in Walnut Creek. And we hired him to drive our car to Washington. He then claims that he saw me..." (According to Brent Friedman (Brent Friedman), Ben Schreckinger contacted him in 2025.) Friedman: "I was approached last November by a journalist formerly with Politico. Ben [Schreckinger]. And he said that he had heard my story going around about John Herrington and wanted to get my side of the story. And this was pre, 'Sound, Light and Frequency.' So I said, 'Well, I'm gonna tell my story in the podcast. So when that comes out, you'll have everything you need to know.' "And he said, 'Okay, well, just so you understand, John says he doesn't even remember you. You you might have been his neighbor, he has no recollection. But you never drove any cars across the country, and he certainly never talked to you about aliens." Jesse Michels: "Did he publish that, that journalist?" Friedman: "Well, that journalist has reached back out to me because he is, oddly...coincidentally, this week or end of last week, he suddenly decided the story was viable or vital, and he wanted to give me one last chance to kind of refute everything, which I denied." (This is what Schreckinger published on September 17th after he spoke with Herrington late last year for "Paradigm News.") "Herrington also said that he really did pay to have his car driven across the country. “'That’s a true story, but Brent Friedman had nothing to do with it,' he said. Instead, Herrington said he had hired his son-in-law to drive his car." (From November of last year, to this recent interview with Jesse, its a major flip flop by Herrington. Did he realize there might be some evidence that Friedman drove the car and he decided (or was told) to change his story? A few of us speculated that maybe Herrington wants to share what he knows (assuming everything Friedman has said is true) but can't do it because of his NDAs or security oath. So...the next best thing is to make an obvious flip flop like that, to let people know he's throwing them a bone. I saw the same thing with Admiral Wilson. I'm gonna go with Herrington changing his story because he knew evidence might surface to show he's lying. Deep down, I think Herrington wants this all to remain secret and he gave you a reason early on in this interview with Jesse. I'll tackle that in another post.) ~ Jesse: "What's his name, real quick?" JH: "Brent Friedman. He said that I came home after he arrived in Washington, and I had been to a secret place, I carried a briefcase chained to my wrist. I had a driver in a limousine. You got to understand, I arrived in Washington as a peon." (At the time Friedman claims Herrington spilled his cuts (Summer of 1981), I believe Herrington was more than just a peon or intern in DC but I could be wrong.) Herrington: "At the time, I was working in personnel. We were reviewing resumes for positions in the government. I was working in the White House political office for Lyn Nofzinger as an intern for him, and we were going through early stages of the Reagan administration. It was later that I came in as personnel department, and I wasn't the head of it, I was..." Jesse: "What year was that? JH: "It would be June of '81." Jesse: "That was after Brent had come?" JH: "Right." Michels: "Okay." (Not okay. This seems to be another problem for JH. Brent says he drove JH's car across the country in the summer of 1981. Herrington is making it sound like he was an intern at that time and didn't move on to the personnel department until "later.") Here's what "The American Presidency Project" says.... "During the 1980 Presidential campaign, Mr. Herrington was a full-time volunteer advance man with the Reagan for President committee. Following the Republican National Convention he was named western regional director for advance. "[On May 6th, 1981] - The President...announced the appointment of John S. Herrington to be Deputy Assistant to the President for Presidential Personnel." (Sounds like more than a peon or intern but maybe someone like Marik vR can dig deeper and clarify?) ~~~Back to Jesse~~~ JH: We didn't have briefcases chained, we didn't have limousines, we didn't have security, we didn't go to secret places. I was working in the White House at a lower level. So that's all a lie. "And then I told him that I had been locked away for a month, and I'd seen people from another planet? It's just total BS. He says I was like a father to him. I never even knew this kid except as a baby next door. So it was all...it was all made up." Jesse: "What elements of the story aren't true? Did he drive across the country?: JH: "He drove across with two other friends. We had to move our cars to Washington because I was going back to live there, and I had an appointment in the administration. And I think they drove...and our dog was in the car, too. He, I knew he was a student at UCLA. I was interesting (probably meant ("interested") because my mother went to UCLA, and I always like to meet UCLA people." (So, he only knew Friedman as a baby and yet he's trusting this 18-year-old to drive his dog across the country? Anybody who has a dog or cat knows that doesn't sound believable. And even if you wanna suggest that maybe the dog was more Mrs. Herrington's dog than JH's, you would think she'd step in and say no. I was paranoid about letting anybody watch our late dog Cookie for a few days, but having a teenager who I barely knew drive him across the country? No f*cking way. It's not a smoking gun but it doesn't pass the smell test, IMO.) JH: "He said his father's an artist. That's true. His mother was living next door. We knew the father and the mother...did not know Brent." (I wish Jesse would have asked how well JH knew Friedman's parents.) JH: "He says he came over and we threw the football together. That didn't happen. We watched telephone...television together. We [That] didn't happen. We had no get along at all. I was a kind of a father figure to him. That didn't happen. But we did get his name because we were looking for some guys to drive the car. So he agreed to do it, and we paid him, and they came back, and that was the end of it." Jesse: "I'm gonna get some flack if I don't offer this. Would we be able to maybe patch in Brent, and you could clear up the story and tell him if...? You know?" JH: "I'm through with Brent." (Through with him?" You haven't seen him since 1981.) JH: "He's a young man that's fallen in love with Hollywood, and he's got the Fauci syndrome, and he's, you know, he's welcome to it." (Hollywood = Democrats = Fauci = Bad. Jesse: "So you don't want to talk to him?" JH: "No, not really." (Should have had Friedman waiting in the back. Here he is!) Jesse: "Okay, fair enough. Yeah, I don't know., it's a bummer because, I don't know, he seemed..." JH: "I hope he sees the interview and realizes what an idiot he's been." Jesse:"Aww. Well, he seems kind of earnest, you know? He doesn't seem like..." JH: "Yeah, he does, doesn't he?" Jesse: "Yeah. So, his story's just..." JH: "Total and complete BS." ~Switch to Jesse's Interview with Friedman~ Jesse: "Brent, thank you for being here, man. I just did this long interview with John, and he actually brought you up. And he was like, you know, that story is totally made up. And he said he only knew you as a baby. He sort of, you know, created some distance. Said that like, you wouldn't come over and play football with him. How does it make you feel just him kind of denying the thing, outright?" Brent Friedman: "Two ways. The first way is the obvious, which is disappointment that after all of these years and, contextually, with disclosure coming out, and a lot of people feeling compelled to tell the truth. A lot of whistleblowers are putting their their their their reputation, and maybe in some cases, their life on the line for this greater good to get the truth out there. "You know...and honestly, you know, it's not true. John taught me how to play football. My father was an artist. He was an introvert. John was a man's man. John not only taught me to play football, he got me inspired in football. I was growing up to be an artist, and I ended up playing football all through grade school, junior high, high school, because he took the time to teach me how to play football. (We need some photos from that time period of Friedman and Herrington. It seems like Herrington denied anything where it would be hard to produce another witness or evidence. I'm sure he doesn't want to get her involved, but having Friedman's mom say she remembers her son hanging with Herrington would help A LOT. And if Friedman also has that note of congratulations he says he received from Herrington after "Dark Skies" premiered, that would REALLY help. He told Jesse he'd have to look for it.) Friedman: "And we used to watch football games on in his living room. He was a huge Redskin fan. He also taught me to be competitive, so I became a Cowboys fan. I am still a Cowboys fan, irrationally. I grew up in California, but it was great to just sit there and be competitive with him on the sofa." (Lot of details. And it's all made up? Hard for me to believe. BTW, I was a Raiders fan growing up on Long Island, N.Y. so Friedman being a Cowboys fan ("America's team") in Cali isn't that "irrational"). Friedman: "So, yeah, he can stiff arm me if he wants, but that was our relationship, and that's why I've said in different interviews and on 'Sound, Light and Frequency' that he was like a second father to me. I didn't... I was much more (laughs) than a baby. I lived there, next door to him between the ages of six and 12, the formative years. "On the other hand, I do have to respect the fact that, at the end of our conversation that I had with him that night out on the veranda, I kind of took all of what he said in, and I said to him, 'How do you know I'm not gonna tell other people about this?' And he said, 'Well, I'm sure you are. The question is, who's gonna believe you?' (Admiral Wilson told Dr. Eric Davis, "If you blow my trust, I’ll deny meeting you, deny everything said." And that's what Wilson has done in very interview.) Friedman: "And I didn't really think anything of it at the time. And he said, 'And by the way, if you use my name and everything, I'm just going to deny it.'" Jesse: "This exact interaction transpired in 1981, right?" Friedman: "Yes, the summer of 1981 was when I was...had graduated high school, and I was then going to go off to college at UCLA." Jesse: "And what was John Harrington's exact position then?" Friedman: "I believe it was something to the effect of he was on special assignment for the president. What I heard later through my mom was that he was involved in the ABSCAM investigation and had been for a period even leading up to after the election in November and before the administration took over. He was somehow involved in that." (I can't find anything connecting Herrington to the ABSCAM investigation.) Jesse: "I think a polygraph would be interesting. I think if you pass that, that would be awesome [laughs]. And I don't know if uh..." Friedman: "I'm willing to do...I mean, if people are that interested in whether this happened or not, I'm happy to do it." (This is, potentially, one of the most important stories ever. Definitely Top Ten or Five. IF people are interested? That's an odd reply. Please take a polygraph.) Friedman: "I talked to my mom, who always had stayed close with John and his...particularly, his wife Lois, and [I] said, 'Yeah, John said he didn't even remember us.' And she, I mean, she, honestly, started crying.' She was like, 'The Herringtons were some of our best friends. John threw me my 33rd birthday at his restaurant, Victoria Station. I have photos of it.'" (THIS is why I wanted Jesse to ask JH how close he was with Friedman's parents. I don't use the "liar" word very often, but right now, I lean heavily towards Herrington not telling the truth. Here's my REALLY-Long-Ass Post on the story from the other day...](https://image.24vids.com/tw-2108264202188341291/amplify_video_thumb/2108263964941664256/img/Rqxy76qqKuVd7Js8.jpg)
