Why I’m Not Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox

There’s an entire movement of us developing American Orthodoxy. It’s not a Slavic or Arab religion. Rome was Christianized and was still Rome. Russia was Christianized and was still Russia. All our ancestors were Orthodox a thousand years ago. There is no reason to think America cannot be converted. Historically, this happens with political leadership becoming Orthodox.

Why won’t you guys do formal debates?

Would you be open to discussing some of your hang ups with Orthodoxy? Doesn’t have to be a debate, but it can be a casual discussion. I used to be a pastor and Protestant apologist before I accepted the truth of Holy Orthodoxy

Let’s see if our views can withstand scrutiny. Let’s do a formal debate.

His 6 disagreements and my answers: 1) Scripture as the highest authority is found in Jesus's statement "it is written". Answer: Several obvious problems with this are that the New Testament was not yet written and would not be written until years after Christ's death and resurrection. Determining and agreeing upon which books were canonical would take centuries more. If Jesus wanted to place the scripture as the highest authority, why did he spend 3 years building a church instead of 3 years writing and distributing a bible? 2) Mariology is not biblical or in the early church Answer: He undersells what we see in scripture. We see in Luke 1 the veneration of Mary. We see Mary being the one who prompts Jesus's first miracle in John 2:1-11. We see Mary being symbolically given to the church from the Cross (John 19:26). We a vision of the Mother of the Savior crowned in heaven in Revelation 12. He is right that Romans doesn't mention her much but that is not the whole bible and Paul was much more focused on Gentile/Jew interactions in Rome. But we also see her venerated as the New Eve (remember Eve was conceived without sin) in the earliest writings of the church (Irenaeus 170AD, Justin Martyr 150 AD, and Tertullian 200 AD). We have a prayer to Mary for help from 250 AD. 3) Papacy not found in the bible. Answer: I think he is missing the clear passages in scripture recognized by all the church fathers as at a minimum placing Peter as the chief of the apostles. Consider the most famous passage supporting the papacy: Matthew 16:16-19 that precedes the passagge in Matthew 18 you discussed. Many see Matt 16 and miss the significance of it. Let's look a bit more deeply: "Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” Here we have Jesus renaming Simon to Rock (Petros in Greek) and telling him that he will build his church on him that the gates of hell will not overcome. But then Jesus begins a ceremony. I call it a ceremony because it appears that Jesus is following a ceremonial formula for ordaining the Vicar (representative) of a King. Jesus, who regularly quoted from Isaiah (over 20 times), closely follows the formula in Isaiah 22:20-22. Consider: “In that day I will summon my servant, Eliakim son of Hilkiah… I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open." The parallels are striking. A key is given. Peter/Eliakim is then given the power to bind/shut or loose/open. The similarity of the phrasing and the tendency of Christ to quote from the prophet Isaiah make it seem HIGHLY unlikely that this is coincidental. Jesus is nearly quoting the Prophet Isaiah on purpose. What is he getting at? To understand, let’s look at who Eliakim was. He was the Vicar of King Hezekiah. And we see his role in 2 Kings 18:18. In that passage, the Assyrian Commander calls for King Hezekiah. But instead of the King going out, Eliakim is sent to speak on his behalf. Eliakim was the vicar, the representative and the spokesperson for King Hezekiah. With that in mind, let's get back to the ceremony that Jesus performed on St Peter in Matt 16:16-19. Jesus (a king) was performing a ceremony of a Vicar and the Vicar's role (as seen in 2 Kings) is to speak on behalf of the King. He is making Peter his Vicar. No similar ceremony is done for the rest of the apostles. Matt 18 gives a element of it but only of the authority. Not of the Vicarship. No keys. No parallel to Eliakim. I could go on but please read "Pope Peter" by Joe Heschmeyer for all the biblical passages showing this clearly. In terms of passing on the office, Acts 1 shows Peter saying it was "necessary" to pass on Judas's office, how much more important Peters? And we see in a 90 AD letter from St. Clement of Rome stating that Peter did exactly that. 4) Prayer to Saints/Icons are not in the bible. Answer: I think he undersells Revelation 5:8 and Revelation 8:3-4 depicting heavenly elders and angels holding golden bowls filled with the incense of the prayers of the saints. What else could this mean? And in Hebrews 12:1 it refers to saints (who had passed away) as a cloud of witnesses. Witnesses can see. Further, we do have prayers contemporary to the New Testament invoking the help of the dead. Finally, when Jesus was on the cross, some in the crowd misunderstood him and thought he was crying out to Elijah (Matthew 27:46-49) why would they think that if that was not a practice of the day? 5) Sacrementology - he rejects that God would fool our senses while affirming more than just a spiritual presence. Answer: But if the presence is not merely spiritual, how could there not be some change that is unseen or untasted? All transsubstantiation says is that the outward appearance (the accidents) stay the same while the reality (substance) changes. Not sure how anyone who believes in the real presence can have a problem with this. Just a description of what it is. 6) Justification is imputed not infused. Answer: The problem with this view is that it was unheard of until the 16th century. If this is such an important doctrine, why was it held by no one until Luther?

Heretics give all sorts of excuses to disagree with what Christ established

Then you’ll deal with endless Protestant sectarianism the rest of your life. Holy Orthodoxy is here whenever you are ready to come to it, @JoelWebbon, @dalepartridge. I’m sure there’s a local parish or two near you.

The reason:

Would love to see you sit down with someone like @Alex_Ortodoxie to discuss Orthodoxy.

Why doesn’t your religion exist in the ancient Middle East where Christianity started? Can you show me one ancient Protestant church or community that interprets the Bible the way you guys do? Because we have plenty of ancient orthodox churches and communities that remain since the time of the apostolic fathers.

Christian nationalism works best with Orthodoxy… just the facts Joel. Much love brother

We dont have time for infighting anyways. "And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand" -Mark 3:25 Rest assure, any "Christian" who seem more interested in stirring up tensions between traditional Christians is most likely an infiltrator.

Why Jesus should be ignored

I pray that this isn’t going to echo the common lazy neo-pagan objection to Christianity: “your religion was foreign to our ancestors at one point, therefore it’s not true”

Answer: Because I don't actually have faith in Christ and His Holy Eucharist

"Why I'm not a Christian"

Oof. I hope you reconsider and join the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church brother (ie the Orthodox Church)

We have a song for you, joey :)

Why neither of you are Christian Identity: You are clout chasing mammon worshippers

Why I’m not Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox: Because I believe in the words of Jesus.

@Preteristesch You guys aren’t even Christians at all. Just people who take the Lord’s name in vain.

Protestants ALWAYS have to make videos like this sad

Protestantism is the delusional fantasy that some angry Catholics rediscovered the true strain of the lost ancient Christian church.

Lord have mercy. ☦️

“I’m not gonna strawman these positions, I’m going to steel man them” proceeds to instantly strawman 🤦‍♂️ Chat/debate these claims with any of these guys: @JayDyer @C2Antiquity @Alex_Ortodoxie

Don’t worry, there’s still time.

Total Protestant propaganda and no real history in that whole segment.

Love you Joel. I left the Protestant church and converted to Orthodoxy. The church is inevitable.

The Athanasian Creed, just like the corrupted Nicene Creed used by the Roman Catholic, Protestant and Evangelical Churches today, includes the Filioque Heresy!!! The Eastern Orthodox Church has never and will never profess the Athanesian Creed because it includes a heretical claim and it is therefore heretical!

I went to an Eastern Orthodox church a few months back to see what it was all about. It was very foreign to me, and very packed. The lack of pews was odd to me, among other things, but that didn't necessarily push me away. What kept me from coming back was that nobody spoke to me. Nobody saw me clearly not being familiar with the chanting, and bowing, hand hand gestures, etc, and tried to welcome me. It was something, I did my best to participate. I found myself constantly trying to stay out of the way of the swinging door in the back, as there were few places to stand or sit. At the end, I certainly didn't feel that I had any business taking their communion, so I left. I was surprised at the experience and somewhat disappointed. I have long pondered the inherent differences of non Protestant churches. I guess I was hoping to experience some type of epiphany or something, like I belonged and had been missing out. I am still in need of a home church. Please pray for my family and I. God is certainly doing great things in our lives, but I would like us to be part of a congregation.

I didn’t listen but these are all bad reasons.

I've been every kind of Protestant. I'm finally home in the EO church.

Because you like to do things your own self interpreted way, sadly. You live a faith somewhat foreign to the family of Christ, the apostles and early church. You have a lot of Orthodoxy mixed with heresy. Come be cleansed brother.