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For years, AdamW has been the default optimizer behind every LLM training run on the planet. A new optimizer called Muon is twice as computationally efficient - and the core idea is embarrassingly elegant: orthogonalize the momentum matrix. The same singular value decomposition that powers every matrix operation inside... show more
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I am genuinely impressed by the solution's technical ingenuity. However, I want to point out a broader issue that has been bothering me for a while: the math is decoupled from real-world practicalities, and that has profound drawbacks. How is an algorithm (more efficient) genuinely better when I spend most of my time figuring out regression and improvements in the verticals of the task domain? No amount of clever math will fix the fact that your dataset underrepresents certain cases. To make an analogy, if you make one flight more fuel-efficient to cut CO2 emissions, you end up optimising a local element, while more and more people travel because of "less costly flights", cancelling the savings or even increasing overall CO2 emissions. From what I can tell, we keep making "one flight more fuel efficient" (a.k.a. smarter training algos), while the overall trustworthiness and commercial viability of the products don't really improve, and may even get worse.

New? muon has been around for a while

Bro…

i learnt so much in these 17 minutes though it will take time to full absorb in , great video !!

lol. Are you from 2024?

the part that gets left out: muon only covers the 2d matrices. embeddings, biases, norms still run on adamw in practice. so it's a hybrid, not a replacement. that changes what the 2x claim can mean.

The SVD angle is what makes it click for me — instead of letting momentum drift in every direction, Muon keeps the update close to orthogonal. Curious how much of that 2x holds up outside large transformer runs, though — has anyone seen it shine on smaller models too?

Awesome! 🔥🔥🔥

I can understand every bit of this .

Is the 2x figure from the original small runs, or has anyone shown it holding at frontier scale? That's the part I keep looking for. Optimizer wins have a habit of shrinking as the token budget grows.
