James White: Roman Catholics can't answer this question.

We can lol. Eyewitnesses to said revelation passed on by tradition. It was a fallible knowledge of a canon. The Church brought infallible knowledge of the canon.

Lol no. James White’s question actually proves the Catholic model, not disproves it. Here’s the logic broken down clearly: 🧩 What he’s missing: Before Christ, 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗿𝗲 𝘄𝗮𝘀 𝗻𝗼 𝗳𝗶𝘅𝗲𝗱, 𝘂𝗻𝗶𝘃𝗲𝗿𝘀𝗮𝗹𝗹𝘆 𝗮𝗴𝗿𝗲𝗲𝗱-𝘂𝗽𝗼𝗻 𝗝𝗲𝘄𝗶𝘀𝗵 𝗰𝗮𝗻𝗼𝗻. Different Jewish groups (Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Diaspora Jews) accepted 𝗱𝗶𝗳𝗳𝗲𝗿𝗲𝗻𝘁 𝗰𝗼𝗹𝗹𝗲𝗰𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻𝘀 of sacred writings. So, when White asks “𝘏𝘰𝘸 𝘥𝘪𝘥 𝘢 𝘣𝘦𝘭𝘪𝘦𝘷𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘑𝘦𝘸 𝘬𝘯𝘰𝘸 𝘸𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘸𝘢𝘴 𝘚𝘤𝘳𝘪𝘱𝘵𝘶𝘳𝘦 𝘣𝘦𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘦 𝘊𝘩𝘳𝘪𝘴𝘵?” - the answer is: Because 𝗮𝗻 𝗮𝘂𝘁𝗵𝗼𝗿𝗶𝘁𝗮𝘁𝗶𝘃𝗲 𝗰𝗼𝗺𝗺𝘂𝗻𝗶𝘁𝘆 - the religious leadership within Israel - guided that discernment. That 𝘪𝘴 a form of 𝗠𝗮𝗴𝗶𝘀𝘁𝗲𝗿𝗶𝘂𝗺. In simpler terms: 1. There was no inspired “list” of inspired books. 2. The faithful relied on 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗹𝗶𝘃𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗮𝘂𝘁𝗵𝗼𝗿𝗶𝘁𝘆 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗶𝗿 𝗰𝗼𝗺𝗺𝘂𝗻𝗶𝘁𝘆, not personal interpretation. 3. That’s precisely what Catholics mean by “Sacred Tradition” guided by the Spirit. Therefore: The Old Covenant had a living authority (the Jewish community guided by the priests and scribes). The New Covenant has a living authority (the Catholic Church guided by the bishops and successors of the apostles). So, far from refuting Catholicism, White’s argument proves the continuity between the Old and New Covenants - both depend on a 𝗹𝗶𝘃𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗶𝗻𝘁𝗲𝗿𝗽𝗿𝗲𝘁𝗶𝘃𝗲 𝗮𝘂𝘁𝗵𝗼𝗿𝗶𝘁𝘆, not private judgment. @HwsEleutheroi

“How did the believing Jewish person know Isaiah and 2 Chronicles were scripture 50 years before Christ?” Here’s your answer: They didn’t.

In the days of the Old Covenant the Levites and priests of the temple were the CLOSEST thing to the magisterium of the CC. Their job was to guard and INTERPRET Scripture. They had divine authority vested in them since Aaron and his descendants were appointed.

This is such an ironic question because there were groups of Jews who did not accept either of those books as scripture. The Sadducees only believed the Torah was scripture. There wasn’t agreement on what was cannon during the time of Christ. James White, in his hubris, thinks he’s dunking on Catholics while making a good argument for why the central authority of Rome is, at a minimum, a wise structure.

That's a great question. There is a fresh breed of Roman Catholics on X who say we need the church that gave us the Bible, but they have probably never considered this question.

They claim that we can't understand the true meaning of Scripture without their magisterial help. That's an unscriptural, cult-like mentality.

@marksbury You haven't even got a bible without the Church.

@Truth_matters20 That means no one had a Bible until at least the first century.

@Truth_matters20 Oral tradition preceded the earliest writings, by 2nd century, most Christians were using the four Gospels and Paul’s letters as authoritative. But they already had what we know as the Old Testament. The early Church decided what scriptures entered the Bible.

@Truth_matters20 Close. The early affirmed what God's people already knew.

The Saudacees and Pharisees would teach what is scripture. That's how it's known. The Saudacees would have said those books are not scripture The Pharisees would say they are.

That's a terribly stupid question considering there was disagreement on what was Scripture in the first century. Slim Jim White proving again why a degree mill slip of paper doesn't make you a dr.

This question has been answered to him and publicly multiple times. They didn’t. They didn’t agree at Jesus‘s time what was scripture.

Knowing certain books are inspired doesn't mean all have been declared as part of the canon. This goes for both the OT and NT books.

In no dispute in the early Church was scripture ever seen as the final authority. The voice of the Church was. Just read the Acts of the Apostles.

Simple: Because the covenant people of God, under God-given authority, received it and handed it on. Scripture did not fall from heaven into individual laps. It lived within the liturgy, priesthood, and communal tradition of Israel. So when the New Covenant arrives, that same principle continues: The Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth (1 Tim 3:15). If you remove the Church, you don’t protect Scripture…you lose the very reason you trust Scripture at all.

James White is a liar.

This is a ridiculous argument. Citing scripture as scripture does not mean you think scripture is the sole infallible authority. We cite scripture today, and we don't think it's the sole infallible authority. Our Lord appealed to scripture because it is the word of God, and the jews accepted it as the word of God or at the very least authoritative, but He certainly didn't HAVE to, and Jesus cites Himself as the authority many times. (Matthew 5, Matthew 7:28-29, Matthew 12:8, John 5:22-27, and many more). Finally, the pre-Christian jews did NOT have a uniform canon of scripture; they widely disagreed which books were and were not inspired. So in reality, the question Dr White poses is actually a question HE needs to answer. How did the jews know what scripture was before Christ and the Church? The answer is they didn't, and they received their revelation directly from God and the prophets, and then in our days from Jesus Christ (Hebrews 1). Our Lord instituted His Church and gave it the power of interpretation by the Holy Spirit (Matthew 16:18-19, Luke 10:16, John 14:26, Acts 15, 1 Timothy 3:15, Acts 8:30-31), and that Church can recognize which books belong or do not belong in the canon.

Easy. There was no infallible magisterium in Judaism 500 years before Jesus, which is exactly why there was no fixed canon. Different Jewish groups accepted different sets of Scriptures. Sadducees accepted only the Torah (Pentateuch). Pharisees used the TANAK (Law, Prophets, Writings). Alexandrian Jews used the Septuagint, which included the Deuterocanonical books. This is the exact reason why Jesus uses only the Torah when speaking to the Sadducees. The idea of a universally defined canon didn’t exist yet. Until Christs Church was founded and given the Holy Spirit to guide them to ALL truth. How’s that for “They can’t answer”

Not sure why he was struck silent. Perhaps it was the complete incoherence that this is used as an argument. Against what precisely? The fact that there is a declared canon of scripture?

This has been asked & answered many times. Now ask yourself why your Protestant Bible replaced the version of the OT quoted by the apostles & NT authors themselves in favor of a Hebrew version standardized by Jewish scribes who rejected Jesus centuries after His death?🤔

We don’t equate the Jewish authorities with the magisterium of the church lmao

It shows both your ignorance. There were multiple Jewish canons depending on the group you aligned with - Sadducees, Pharisees, Septuagint, Qumran/Essenes. It took *the Church* to finally settle on the Septuagint as the canon of the OT. You reject Christ’s Church’s authoritative canon and align with post-Christian Jew rabbis who settled on the Tanakh because it’s the canon that least supports the Christians claims that Christ is the Messiah. Your heretical sect has zero authority to claim anything other than what The Church has taught since the time of the apostles.

The answer is very simple. They had the normative authority of the Priesthood and Prophets. James white is retarded.

Extremely easy question to answer: They knew by what is now understood as Sacred Tradition and Magisterium. Know that passage about “Moses’ Seat”? Next question

Christ said the Word is cool refreshing water of life, and he was right. Read the Word. You'll see. You don't need anyone to tell you water is wet.

What’s scary is that James white thought it was a great question and secondly… that he hasn’t found an answer to that question in 25 years. Says more about him than anyone else

That's retarded and a complete self own. They knew because of the jewish Magesterium - the rabbi, and their traditions. Same way we know the New Testamant - the Magesterium and Tradition.

Sola Scriptura means the Bible is no longer an authority. Anyone can interpret it any way they please, and claim “the Spirit,” led them to it. Oh wait; that already happened thousands of times.

Ironic given Jews misinterpreting scripture on their own is kinda half the message of Christ. Not exactly the most compelling argument when you take it to its end practical reality. That and the constant apostasy of Israel.

What? This is the easiest question to answer. The Jews did not have a Canon until after Jesus Christ. Depending on the Jewish sect, they had various scriptures. Just look at the Dead Sea Scrolls. .

It’s honestly strange to see White acting this calm and normal. I miss seeing that.

Catholics have answered it a hundred times over.

Tradition is the answer. Sadducees and Essenes didn’t regard 2 Chronicles as scripture at that time. Protestant “scholars” generally treat the Jewish people as a monolith, when really there were different sects each with their own traditions and canon lists.

I'm a Roman Catholic. Let me help. @grok Was the Jewish canon fixed at the time of Christ?

I'm genuinely interested in what their answer is on this because he nails it. To be fair there's a lot you can nail them on in a similar way, but this is very intriguing

Quite simple they did not have a declared canon and just like today certain groups removed some books from the Bible.

Outstanding

Had similar thoughts about the role of presuppositions recently