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Jordan Peterson explains Hayek’s “knowledge problem” argument “The proposition that central planning will work is the proposition that you can substitute one expert mind for a million distributed expert minds.” “That’s obviously not the case, because each person is going to have knowledge that pertains to their locality that...

76,277 просмотров • 6 месяцев назад •via X (Twitter)

Комментарии: 34

Фото профиля J. F. Carpio
J. F. Carpio6 месяцев назад

That’s such a weak angle. The problem is cost accounting (economic calculation), not disperse knowledge which is disperse in any system. The crux of the matter is property which enables prices. Then prices enable economic calculation and rational allocation of scarce resources. Socialism is a property problem, not a knowledge problem (framing it that way will lead to a thousand attempts using computers and AI, just because it distracts from the actual issue: property->prices->cost accounting.

Фото профиля Rish Tandapany
Rish Tandapany6 месяцев назад

Best explained by Star Wars: Hayek’s “knowledge problem” is basically why the Empire keeps building Death Stars and still loses. One central mind can’t possibly see what thousands of small, hungry Rebel cells discover on the ground, in real time. The more you try to rule a complex galaxy from the center, the more fragile your order becomes. #StarWars

Фото профиля Travis Williams
Travis Williams6 месяцев назад

Misses the main point that our needs are not predictable. It’s not that they are difficult to predict, it’s that they cannot be predicted beyond a short window of time. This is a rule of complex interdependent systems, much like gravity is a rule of physics.

Фото профиля Mike Davis
Mike Davis6 месяцев назад

Expertise is a very scarce commodity. It the New York Mets moved to Dallas. Mayor Mandami could create another team, but he could not staff it by sending bureaucrats out to the mound and the plate. The Marxist notion that all labor is equivalent is demonstrably false. 🤔🤔🤔🤔

Фото профиля Mike Davis
Mike Davis6 месяцев назад

Central planning ignores the fact that when new startups occur, nobody gets it right the first time. Proficiency happens as result of competition and elimination and eclectic improvement. Central planning can not do this alone. This is "the myth of the omniscient bureaucrat". 🤔🤔🤔

Фото профиля BeInimitable
BeInimitable6 месяцев назад

The China model only works because it’s subsidized.

Фото профиля Gale Pooley
Gale Pooley6 месяцев назад

"Economic transactions are purchases and sales of knowledge." -Thomas Sowell

Фото профиля Theo Mogenet - Bull Bitcoin
Theo Mogenet - Bull Bitcoin6 месяцев назад

Close. It’s not so much that knowledge is distributed, but rather that it doesn’t even exist before humans act in the context of property rights. Putting a gazillon sensors in a communist society and aggregating all available data in real time in an infinitely powerfull computer would still produce economic chaos.

Фото профиля talkinghead
talkinghead6 месяцев назад

It’s more often multiply than sum. Even more important.

Фото профиля KevR
KevR6 месяцев назад

Whilst I agree, stupid people need to be factored into this equation; not excluding stupid ideologically possessed 'experts'.

Фото профиля Chris Wagter
Chris Wagter6 месяцев назад

@lexhoogduin The problem with a swarm is that you react relatively slowly and reactively, which, in competition with a Xi (assuming he doesn't make too many mistakes), puts Europe at a disadvantage…

Фото профиля Strogg
Strogg6 месяцев назад

There were certain things that are central WISE government control and funding of works better than private. Electricity delivery, water delivery, garbage collection medical services. However, like everything unless there’s incentives for people who run these public services, they just generally wind down into a poor debt ridden poor provider. It’s a fine balance between public and a private.

Фото профиля Revista Anarcos
Revista Anarcos6 месяцев назад

Escuela de Salamanca

Фото профиля Sergey Martinov
Sergey Martinov6 месяцев назад

Peaceful society that allows property owners to exploit others.

Фото профиля Mark Lassiter
Mark Lassiter6 месяцев назад

@bramk No amount of individual freedom philosophy can prevent central planning. We must build better tools to prevent it.

Фото профиля D▬▬iel Bor▬▬▬▬ldt 🪚🔥🦆
D▬▬iel Bor▬▬▬▬ldt 🪚🔥🦆6 месяцев назад

In my opinion, Dr. Peterson is one of the very few geniuses we have today.🙏

Фото профиля Julieta del Futuro.
Julieta del Futuro.4 месяцев назад

👌

Фото профиля Your Mom, Dave
Your Mom, Dave6 месяцев назад

JBP, when he was sharp, was really quite sharp.

Фото профиля HouseValeria
HouseValeria6 месяцев назад

JP isn't against central planning. He's against strong leadership and an individual with principles achieving political authority in America. The reason for that is that a strong leader with principles would eject his (patrons) from the state.

Фото профиля Carlos Cruz
Carlos Cruz6 месяцев назад

Yup. Pretty much.

Фото профиля Libertarian News
Libertarian News6 месяцев назад

💯 For the same reason, 100 "decentralized" studies (and a subsequent meta-analysis) are better than 1 large study (with the same N).

Фото профиля Stephen Vis
Stephen Vis6 месяцев назад

Did Hayek anywhere explore the limit of the argument? what if al individuals are idiots? if all local knowledge is self-defeating? would centralized power be better then? Can we speak of a mean? Not too much nor too little centralization of knowledge?

Фото профиля 山田 久喜
山田 久喜6 месяцев назад

その部分知を統合するものが価格(決済)のはずだが、吉村は「踏み倒したら儲かってもうか」とタコ踊り(´;ω;`)

Фото профиля Ishpeck the Techurmudgeon
Ishpeck the Techurmudgeon6 месяцев назад

It's weird how salient that was. I'm used to Peterson sounding like a total sophist. Maybe Austrian is just my native sophistry. 😜

Фото профиля Roberto Lodigiani
Roberto Lodigiani6 месяцев назад

And that is called 'Democracy'. the rule/decision of the majority.

Фото профиля David Tuffnell
David Tuffnell6 месяцев назад

@tpv_tragula Leftists don't understand this; at least they pretend not to.

Фото профиля Dieter Kief
Dieter Kief6 месяцев назад

Interesting indeed - -also - a little bit - obvious, right?

Фото профиля Tim
Tim6 месяцев назад

It's like trading you brain in for the best brain cells.

Фото профиля Dan Ferris aka Boxer the horse
Dan Ferris aka Boxer the horse6 месяцев назад

The mechanism for exploiting others is the large, centralized power structure most folks are in love with. Government.

Фото профиля Horst Baddorties
Horst Baddorties6 месяцев назад

Lysenkoism killed millions in the USSR.

Фото профиля Ruby
Ruby6 месяцев назад

Sometimes he does say really smart things that make a lot of sense!

Фото профиля Matthias Gisslar
Matthias Gisslar6 месяцев назад

So why did Hayek propose Globalist control of the economy?

Фото профиля Paulus
Paulus6 месяцев назад

Depends on the subject matter. I would not advise to roll out Advanced Mamufacturing with local specialists on each manufacturing site of a big company. Knowledge intensive, capex, and high risk types should be centralized.

Фото профиля rin
rin6 месяцев назад

Each point is a ship upon the sea, we don't need some jackass from ottawa telling us how to steer it. If they have something new and brilliant, we'll listen but its all about power not efficiency.

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.Naval: You define wealth in a beautiful way. You talk about wealth as a set of physical transformations that we can affect. So as a society it becomes very clear that knowledge leads directly to wealth creation for everybody. A given individual can obviously affect physical transformations proportional to the resources available to them—but much more proportional to the knowledge available to them. Knowledge is a huge force multiplier. You then define resources as the thing that you combine with knowledge to create wealth. New knowledge allows you to use new things as resources and discard old things that maybe we’re running out of. There are lots of examples of how we’ve done that in the past. For example, in energy we’ve gone from wood to coal to oil to nuclear. But then people say, “Now we’re out of ideas. Now we’re caught up. Now we’re done. There aren’t going to be new ideas, and now we have to freeze the frame and conserve what we have.” The counter to that is, “No, we’ll create new knowledge and have new resources. Don’t worry about the old ones.” Well they say, “If you’re going to have new resources, if you can’t think of them now, it’s not real.” This now gets into the realm of people demanding that if you’re going to claim that new knowledge will be created, you have to name that knowledge now. Otherwise it’s not real. But that seems like a Catch-22. David Deutsch: It does, and it’s a bad argument. I don’t want to claim that the knowledge will be created. We’re fallible; we may not create it. We may destroy ourselves. We may miss the solution that’s right under our nose, so that when the snailiens come from another galaxy and look at us, they’ll say, “How can it possibly be that they failed to do so-and-so when it was right in front of them?” That could happen. I can’t prove or argue that it won’t happen. What I always argue, though, is that we have what it takes. We have everything that it takes to achieve that. If we don’t, it’ll be because of bad choices we have made, not because of constraints imposed on us by the planet or the solar system. Naval: It will be by anti-rational memes that restrict the creation of knowledge and the growth of knowledge. David Deutsch: Maybe. Or maybe it’ll be by well-intentioned errors, which nobody could see why they were errors. Again, it doesn’t take malevolence to make mistakes. Mistakes are the normal condition of humans. All we can do is try to find them. Maybe not destroying the means of correcting errors is the heart of morality; because if there is no way of correcting errors, then sooner or later one of those will get us. Naval: Don’t destroy the means of error correction is the base of morality. I love that. I think about places like North Korea where you can’t have elections and a revolution is very difficult because the gang in charge is armed to the teeth and they’ve destroyed the means of political error correction for a long time. That is a case where humanity is trapped in a local minimum, and it’s very hard to climb out of that hole. If too much of the world falls into that mindset, then we as a species may just stagnate because we’ve lost our biggest advantage. We’ve lost our biggest discovery, which was the ability to make new discoveries.

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.Naval: You have a beautiful definition of knowledge, which most people don’t even try to tackle, about how knowledge perpetuates itself in the environment. You gave some really good examples. One was around genes. Successful, highly adapted genes contain a lot of knowledge and can cause themselves to be replicated because they’re survivors. In the same way, knowledge itself is a survivor, in that if you transmit to me the knowledge of how to build a computer, it’s an incredibly useful thing. I’m going to build more and more computers and that knowledge will be passed on. Your underlying point that you repeated here was if you want to understand the physical universe you have to understand knowledge, because it is the thing that over time takes over and changes more and more the universe—more than almost anything else. You have to understand all the explanations behind it. You can’t just say “particle collisions” because that explains everything, so it explains nothing. It’s not a useful level to operate at. Therefore, the things that create knowledge are uniquely influential in the universe. And as far as we know, there are only two systems that create knowledge. There’s evolution and there are humans. But is there a difference even between these two forms of knowledge creation, between evolution and between humans? David Deutsch: Yes. I have argued that the human way of creating knowledge is the ultimate one, that there aren’t any more powerful ones than that. This is the argument against the supernatural. Assuming that there is a form of knowledge creation that’s more powerful than ours is equivalent to invoking the supernatural, which is therefore a bad explanation—as invoking the supernatural always is. The difference between biological evolution and human creative thought is that biological evolution is inherently limited in its range. That’s because biological evolution has no foresight. It can’t see a problem and conjecture a solution. Whenever biological evolution produces a solution to something, it’s always before natural selection has even begun. This is Charles Darwin’s insight. This is the difference between Charles Darwin’s theory of evolution and the other theories of evolution that had been around for a century or more before that, including Charles Darwin’s grandfather and Lamarck. The thing they didn’t get is that the creation of knowledge in evolution begins before. That means that biological evolution can’t reach places that are not reachable by successive improvements, each of which allows a viable organism to exist. Creationists say that biological evolution has, in fact, reached things that are not reachable by incremental steps, each of which is a viable organism. They’re factually mistaken. The thing which they have in mind is the idea of a creator who can imagine things that don’t exist and who can create an idea that is not the culmination of a whole load of viable things. A thinking being can create something that’s a culmination of a whole load of non-viable things. Explanatory creativity makes humans unique Out of all the billions and billions of species that have ever existed, none of them has ever made a campfire, even though many of them would’ve been helped by having the genetic capacity to make campfires. The reason it didn’t happen in the biosphere is that there is no such thing as making a partially functional campfire; whereas there is, for example, with making hot water. The bombardier beetles squirt boiling water at their enemies. You can easily see that just squirting cold water at your enemies is not totally unhelpful. Then making it a bit hotter and a bit hotter. Squirting boiling water no doubt required many adaptations to make sure the beetle didn’t boil itself while it was making this boiling water. That happened because there was a sequence of steps in between, all of which were useful. But with campfires, it’s very hard to see how that could happen. Humans have explanatory creativity. Once you have that, you can get to the moon. You can cause asteroids which are heading towards the earth to turn around and go away. Perhaps no other planet in the universe has that power, and it has it only because of the presence of explanatory creativity on it.

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