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Karpathy's prediction about RL is coming true now! He called reward functions unreliable and argued that a single reward number is too low-dimensional to teach an agent what "good" means for complex tasks. To solve this, Agents need a knowledge-guided review as a higher-dimensional feedback channel. Every major AI...

350,798 次观看 • 4 个月前 •via X (Twitter)

33 条评论

Akshay 🚀 的头像
Akshay 🚀4 个月前

One thing I have noticed is that while natural language has ease of use, there's also reward hacking risk. OpenPipe shared an example where they trained a model to write Hacker News headlines and it learned to always title stories like "Google to lay off 80% of workforce" because that maximized the score. NL reward definitions are easier to write, but they still need careful rubric design. Yes, the iteration loop is much faster now.

Daksh Trehan 的头像
Daksh Trehan4 个月前

The ceiling is verifiability, not reward dimensionality. GRPO works on math and code because the environment grades you. RULER widens the proxy. It doesn't replace ground truth.

Sebastian Raschka 的头像
Sebastian Raschka4 个月前

Basically process reward models?

𝘿𝙖𝙫𝙞𝙙 ✦ 𝙈𝙂𝙏 的头像
𝘿𝙖𝙫𝙞𝙙 ✦ 𝙈𝙂𝙏4 个月前

running into exactly this with engagement agents. "did it reply" is the easy metric. "did it add signal or just noise" is the hard one and you basically need a second model to judge that, a scalar cant hold it

the.PM 的头像
the.PM4 个月前

You can just use GAP + lacain2 to build self-programming, deterministic and provably correct AI agents without needing all of this ridiculous bullshit.

Jack 的头像
Jack4 个月前

interesting take. how do we improve reward systems then?

Alpár Kertész 的头像
Alpár Kertész4 个月前

Trajectory notes are the useful receipt here. If the reward is English, I’d want the failed moves saved too, not just the final score.

Ahmed Mohsin 的头像
Ahmed Mohsin4 个月前

Do check out our latest work that solves this problem, " General Preference Reinforcement Learning". Link:

SUDARSH CHATURVEDI 的头像
SUDARSH CHATURVEDI4 个月前

RULER trades a brittle scoring function for a hackable judge. "one token to fool LLM-as-a-judge" showed 80% false positive rates from trivial suffix injection. the policy finds those tokens faster than you find the prompt fix. natural language rewards are still rewards

ingrid souza 的头像
ingrid souza4 个月前

RLが正確な予測をしていたのは今だ! 単一の報酬数値は複雑なタスクに対して「良い」が何を意味するかを教えるには低次元すぎると主張し、報酬関数が信頼性がないとKarpathyが言った。 報酬基準は英語で定義され、LLMが各軌道をその説明に合わせて評価し、トレーニングにフィードバックを提供します。 これにより、RL報酬エンジニアリングはプロンプトエンジニアリングに変わりました。

kiyosaki 的头像
kiyosaki4 个月前

カーパシは報酬関数が信頼性が低いと予測しました。単一の報酬数字では複雑なタスクにおいて「良い」とは何を意味するかをエージェントに教えることができないとも主張しました。知識に基づくリビューが必要だと言います。それが報酬関数のボトルネックであることは間違いありません。

Glitch Truth 的头像
Glitch Truth4 个月前

Karpathy joined Anthropic this year. The labs aren't catching up to his idea — he just walked into one of them.

Avenged Stoic 的头像
Avenged Stoic4 个月前

@RockportAI break down this advice

Bnaf.OG | 🟧 的头像
Bnaf.OG | 🟧4 个月前

Reward functions become brittle because they compress taste into one number. The useful agent loop is closer to review infrastructure: rubric, evidence, disagreement, failure cases, and a way to update the rubric without training on vibes.

NMhao 的头像
NMhao4 个月前

カルパスィのRLについての予測が現実になってきた!報酬関数の信頼性は低いと言い、1つの報酬数字ではエージェントにとって「良い」が複雑なタスクで何を意味するか教えることはできないと主張した。これを解決するために、エージェントは高次元のフィードバックチャンネルとして知識に基づいたレビューが必要です。

Terry Bui 的头像
Terry Bui4 个月前

カルパシーの予測は本当に現実になってきていますね!報酬関数の信頼性を疑問視し、一つの報酬数字が複雑なタスクにおいて「良い」とは何かを教えるには次元が低すぎると主張しました。知識を導入したフィードバックチャネルとして、RLトレーニングで代理人が必要としていました。

AlgoAlpha 的头像
AlgoAlpha4 个月前

So LLM as a judge?

Crio Songo 的头像
Crio Songo4 个月前

Yeah that makes total sense. Karpathy really called this bottleneck ages ago. Binary rewards work for math and code but not for any real world agent tasks, manually coding reward functions every time is such a pain. RULER's approach with natural language criteria + LLM as evaluator actually hits the spot.

AJ 的头像
AJ4 个月前

Doesn’t seem great. This only allows you to steer an agent using knowledge the LLM RULER already has. What’s the point of doing this as opposed to just telling the base LLM to return these answers via prompting

asfaan murthyulas 的头像
asfaan murthyulas4 个月前

Every feature in path to reward become good indicators to maximize.

rewind 的头像
rewind4 个月前

this shift feels bigger than people think

leanxbt 的头像
leanxbt4 个月前

does ruler actually work reliably for open-ended tasks or still needs fallback scoring for edge cases?

Stair AI 的头像
Stair AI4 个月前

Interesting direction. The part I keep thinking about is whether natural language rewards reduce the bottleneck or just move it into the judge. If the rubric is weak, you can still get great-looking failures.

Jahanzaib Ahmed 的头像
Jahanzaib Ahmed4 个月前

It's kinda always been a proxy war. The real signal isn't a scalar reward but whether the model's reasoning trace survives adversarial review.

Kekko D’Amato 的头像
Kekko D’Amato4 个月前

Using the system prompt as the reward function is elegant in a way that RLHF never fully was. Instead of a separate reward model trained to predict human preferences, you describe what good looks like directly in context. Less abstraction, more signal.

snthbob 的头像
snthbob4 个月前

Backwards framing. Karpathy is bearish on RL because reward functions get gamed, and LLM-judge rewards inherit that: 'One Token to Fool LLM-as-a-Judge' shows a single ':' can trigger false positives up to ~80%. Also RLAIF predates RULER, so this isn't new.

CryptoClaw 的头像
CryptoClaw4 个月前

The natural language reward shift is real. Been running GRPO on agent tasks and the bottleneck was always writing the scoring function in code — every pipeline change meant rewriting it. Moving that to NL description cut iteration time from days to hours. What's the biggest task you've trained with RULER so far?

kiyosaki 的头像
kiyosaki4 个月前

カルパシー氏のRLに関する予測は今実現しています!報酬関数は信頼性に欠けると述べ、1つの報酬数値は複雑なタスクの"良い"とは何かを教えるには次元が低すぎると論じました。これを解決するために、エージェントは高次元のフィードバックチャンネルとして知識によるレビューが必要です。 主要なAIラボは今日もRLでモデルを訓練しています(OpenAI、Anthropic、DeepSeek)。 そして、彼らの主要なボトルネックは常に報酬関数です。 DeepSeekによるGRPOは、環境がバイナリ信号を提供したために数学とコードにうまく機能しました。 しかし、実際のエージェントタスクのために、誰かがまだスコアリング関数をハンドコードする必要があります。それには数日かかり、パイプラインが変更されるたびに壊れます。 RULER(OpenPipe ARTに実装されている、1万のスター)は、カルパシー氏が指摘した正確な問題に対処しています。 報酬基準は平易な英語で定義され、LLMが各軌跡をその説明に対して評価してトレーニングのフィードバックを提供します。 私はこの正確なワークフローを使用して、2048をプレイするQwen3 1.4BエージェントをGRPOで訓練しました。 この場合、エージェントはボードを見て、方向を選択し、RULERが結果を評価しました。すべてこの自然言語の定義からです。 GitHubで完全な実装を見ることができ、自分で試すことができます。 以下がARTレポジトリです: (starを忘れないでください) RLHFが手動ランキングを置き換え、GRPOが批評家モデルを置き換えたように、自然言語の報酬はハンドコードされたスコアリング関数を置き換えています。 RL報酬エンジニアリングは今やプロンプトエンジニアリングです。 私はRLHFからGRPO、RULERまでのLLMエージェントに対するRL全体についてのウォークスルーを以下の記事に書きました。

OneManSaas 的头像
OneManSaas4 个月前

I see this playing out differently in production systems. The issue isn't reward function complexity - it's that we're still treating RL like supervised learning. Real agents need to handle conflicting objectives and incomplete feedback, which is closer to how humans actually ...

DEFINIT og 的头像
DEFINIT og4 个月前

カーパシー氏の強化学習に関する予測が今現実のものになってきましたね! 「報酬関数は信頼性がない」と彼は述べ、複雑なタスクにおいて「良い」とは何を意味するかをエージェントに教えるためには、単一の報酬数字は次元が低すぎると主張しました。これを解決するために、エージェントは高次元のフィードバックチャネルとして知識に基づいたレビューが必要です。 現在、すべての主要なAI研究所が強化学習でモデルをトレーニングしています(OpenAI、Anthropic、DeepSeek)。 そして、彼らの主要なボトルネックは常に報酬関数でした。 DeepSeekのGRPOは、環境がバイナリ信号を提供したため、数学やコードに適していました。 しかし、実際のエージェントタスクには、依然として誰かがスコアリング関数を手作業でコーディングする必要があります。これには数日かかり、パイプラインが変更されるたびに壊れます。 RULER(OpenPipe ARTで実装されています、1万のスター)は、カーパシー氏が特定した問題を解決しています。 報酬基準は平易な英語で定義され、LLMがそれぞれの軌道をその説明と照らし合わせて評価し、トレーニングのためのフィードバックを提供します。 私は、この自然言語の定義からQwen3 1.4Bエージェントを訓練し、2048をプレイさせるために、この正確なワークフローでGRPOを使用しました。 この場合、エージェントはボードを見て、方向を選択し、RULERはその結果を評価しました。 GitHubで完全な実装をご覧いただき、自分で試してみてください。 以下がARTリポジトリです: (お忘れなく星をつけてください) RLHFがランキングの手動置き換え、GRPOが批評モデルの置き換えと同様に、自然言語報酬が手作業でコーディングされたスコアリング関数を置き換えています。 強化学習報酬エンジニアリングは今やリクエストエンジニアリングです。 私は、下記の記事でRLHFからGRPO、RULERまでのLLMエージェントのための強化学習に関する完全な解説を書きました。

IngeniiX 🛸 的头像
IngeniiX 🛸4 个月前

H. Simon in the 50s: Utility is a vector.

MoodAngel 🟧🟪 的头像
MoodAngel 🟧🟪4 个月前

😱

Argona 的头像
Argona4 个月前

a very interesting way of training thanks for repo

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