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Ruthlessly optimizing efficiency created the factory farming problem. But in some cases, efficiency gains from tech can have a positive impact on animal welfare. Here Lewis Bollard describes how in-ovo sexing "went from 10 years ago just being a vague idea to today, it's already a third of the...

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Dwarkesh Podcast

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13,292 просмотров • 10 месяцев назад •via X (Twitter)

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New episode w Lewis Bollard - a deep dive on the surprising economics of the meat industry. 0:00:00 – The astonishing efficiency of factory farming 0:07:18 – It was a mistake making this about diet 0:09:54 – Tech that’s sparing 100s of millions of animals/year 0:16:16 – Brainless chickens and higher welfare breeds 0:28:21 – $1 can prevent 10 years of animal suffering 0:37:26 – The situation in China and the developing world 0:41:41 – How the meat lobby got a lock on Congress 0:53:23 – Business structure of the meat industry 0:57:42 – Corporate campaigns are underrated Available on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, etc (look up Dwarkesh Podcast).
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New episode w Lewis Bollard - a deep dive on the surprising economics of the meat industry. 0:00:00 – The astonishing efficiency of factory farming 0:07:18 – It was a mistake making this about diet 0:09:54 – Tech that’s sparing 100s of millions of animals/year 0:16:16 – Brainless chickens and higher welfare breeds 0:28:21 – $1 can prevent 10 years of animal suffering 0:37:26 – The situation in China and the developing world 0:41:41 – How the meat lobby got a lock on Congress 0:53:23 – Business structure of the meat industry 0:57:42 – Corporate campaigns are underrated Available on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, etc (look up Dwarkesh Podcast).

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Ending factory farming isn't about making everyone vegetarian. The animal welfare movement made the same mistake as early environmentalists - turning a systems problem into a personal virtue test. No major social reform succeeded by first converting millions to change their habits. They changed the defaults - subsidies, procurement, regulations. You could have more impact on animal welfare while eating a burger than a vegan who believes they are doing their part. Full episode with Lewis Bollard out now!
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Ending factory farming isn't about making everyone vegetarian. The animal welfare movement made the same mistake as early environmentalists - turning a systems problem into a personal virtue test. No major social reform succeeded by first converting millions to change their habits. They changed the defaults - subsidies, procurement, regulations. You could have more impact on animal welfare while eating a burger than a vegan who believes they are doing their part. Full episode with Lewis Bollard out now!

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Before I interviewed Lewis Bollard, I had assumed that factory farming was on its way out (especially given new tech like cultivated meat around the corner). Unfortunately this is far from inevitable: factory farms are already incredibly efficient machines for making meat (the most efficient broiler chickens convert 1.38 kg of grain into an astonishing 1 kg of flesh). I'd previously assumed that cultivated meat will soon trounce factory farming just on raw economics. Growing meat around a whole creature and mind cannot be the most efficient way to produce tasty flesh, right? Lewis thinks we may be many decades away (at least) from this outcome. Evolution has spent on the order of tens of millions of years optimizing human intelligence. And in order to try replicating this feat, AGI labs have to spend hundreds of billions of dollars a year. Evolution has spent far longer than that (basically the entire time) figuring out how to convert food into meat efficiently. Of course, tech on farms historically has favored more suffering (think gestation crates, battery cages, and overgrown broiler chickens). Improving the conditions on factory farms also requires corporate commitments and regulations against the most cruel practices. Every year we're factory farming about 2% more land animals globally. On the default trajectory, the amount of raw suffering in the world is likely to keep increasing. But there are reasons to think this can change. New technologies like in-ovo sexing have already saved hundreds of millions of male chicks from gruesome fates, with the potential to save billions more. And corporate commitments to go cage-free have already spared well north of 500 million hens from torturous battery cages (again, with the potential to help tens of billions more). Full episode with Lewis Bollard out tomorrow.
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Before I interviewed Lewis Bollard, I had assumed that factory farming was on its way out (especially given new tech like cultivated meat around the corner). Unfortunately this is far from inevitable: factory farms are already incredibly efficient machines for making meat (the most efficient broiler chickens convert 1.38 kg of grain into an astonishing 1 kg of flesh). I'd previously assumed that cultivated meat will soon trounce factory farming just on raw economics. Growing meat around a whole creature and mind cannot be the most efficient way to produce tasty flesh, right? Lewis thinks we may be many decades away (at least) from this outcome. Evolution has spent on the order of tens of millions of years optimizing human intelligence. And in order to try replicating this feat, AGI labs have to spend hundreds of billions of dollars a year. Evolution has spent far longer than that (basically the entire time) figuring out how to convert food into meat efficiently. Of course, tech on farms historically has favored more suffering (think gestation crates, battery cages, and overgrown broiler chickens). Improving the conditions on factory farms also requires corporate commitments and regulations against the most cruel practices. Every year we're factory farming about 2% more land animals globally. On the default trajectory, the amount of raw suffering in the world is likely to keep increasing. But there are reasons to think this can change. New technologies like in-ovo sexing have already saved hundreds of millions of male chicks from gruesome fates, with the potential to save billions more. And corporate commitments to go cage-free have already spared well north of 500 million hens from torturous battery cages (again, with the potential to help tens of billions more). Full episode with Lewis Bollard out tomorrow.

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When an industry optimizes for one metric, it often breaks everything else. In factory farming, this creates compounding suffering. Lewis Bollard explains how trying to solve pig boredom opens a spiral of unintended consequences. “At each step, there is a new solution that can’t solve the fundamental underlying parts of the problem. And sometimes just makes it worse.”
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People don’t appreciate how effective corporate campaigns have been on animal welfare. As opposed to policy change (often gets gridlocked by the meat industry) or moonshot cultivated meat tech (might be decades away from being competitive). This is a pro-market story! We can improve the lives of billions of animals by convincing food companies that consumers would prefer them to use meat from farms with marginally more expensive but far lower suffering practices. Lewis Bollard: US has gone from less than 10% cage-free to 47% cage-free. This transition has already spared over 200 million hens A YEAR from these battery cages.”
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It's hard to grasp the scale of factory farming. Lewis Bollard described what he saw at one farm with 200,000 hens in battery cages (each hen crammed together with 4-6 other hens in a space the size of a microwave oven for years on end, unable to even flap their wings). Consider an alternative civilization where factory farming didn't exist. If we had just discovered that there was one farm treating 200,000 animals this way, it would be a moral emergency. But there are about 8 billion caged hens alive globally at any moment. Which means this one farm is literally just 1/40,000th of the suffering. And that's just for egg production. The whole episode isn't so dire - it discusses the science and economics of the meat industry. But I wanted to highlight this point because it is so easy to flinch away, and not notice how big and important this issue really is.
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It's hard to grasp the scale of factory farming. Lewis Bollard described what he saw at one farm with 200,000 hens in battery cages (each hen crammed together with 4-6 other hens in a space the size of a microwave oven for years on end, unable to even flap their wings). Consider an alternative civilization where factory farming didn't exist. If we had just discovered that there was one farm treating 200,000 animals this way, it would be a moral emergency. But there are about 8 billion caged hens alive globally at any moment. Which means this one farm is literally just 1/40,000th of the suffering. And that's just for egg production. The whole episode isn't so dire - it discusses the science and economics of the meat industry. But I wanted to highlight this point because it is so easy to flinch away, and not notice how big and important this issue really is.

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