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🚨Whoa Eric Davis's Spilling The Beans, This Guy Has No Chill When Davis talks about investigating UAPs and legacy programs, he's very clear that this wasn't done from the sidelines. At NIDS he was part of the scientific core, backed by a world class advisory board that included Hal... show more
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![⾨ 🛸👽 Is Dr. Hal Puthoff a True Insider and Gatekeeper? 👽🛸 ⾨ "It SEEMS like there is that crash retrieval program." ~HP "I can't say that I personally have been absolutely briefed on the crash retrieval program." ~HP ~ Gerb on Fresh Freedom Podcast: "At the UAPDF → Disclosure Foundation event, you (Puthoff) stated, if you revealed everything you knew about the subject, you would go to jail. So, I'm gonna take that as assuming you may have worked in a specific-national-program capacity on such projects of exotic, or technologies of unknown origin." (It's well known that Puthoff was involved, via his company, EarthTech, as a subcontractor in the UFO program, AAWSAP. He was the Senior Science Advisor. He was also involved with the follow-up effort (not an official program) known as AATIP. And yes, much of what they worked on was classified, and as far as we know, that's still the case today. So, Puthoff just can't share all that he knows or learned from that, or he could go to jail. In theory. Was Puthoff read into some other UFO-related program or SAP that he's just not telling us about? It seems like that's what Gerb was insinuating. My opinion? I don't think so. And Puthoff explained where his knowledge comes from in this interview from January of 2025. Did Gerb not see this?) Dr. Hal Puthoff: "Well, a program like that, crash retrievals, and so on, and deep analysis. I mean, this is something that, if it's occurring, you know, is still behind the scenes and highly classified." (IF it's occurring.) Puthoff: "However, I've interacted with the various intelligence officers who've been given the job, officially - actual official jobs - to dig out what's true about the so-called Legacy programs and crash retrievals and so on." (He's saying that his knowledge of any UFO-related Legacy programs (including anything on crash retrievals) is based on what other people have told him.) Puthoff: "People like David Grusch, who appeared before Congress, under oath, and he made the statement that, in fact, there is a Legacy program, we do have access to crash-retrieved craft, even crash-retrieved biologics. Knowing him and where he came from...he was at the National Reconnaissance Office, National Geospatial Intelligence Agency, at the highest level of clearances." (Grusch is one person Puthoff references as a source for details on the alleged crash retrieval program. And as Grusch has said, most of what he (Grusch) learned was from talking to others who claimed they were firsthand folks who worked IN the Legacy program. Grusch sent some of those folks to the Inspector General so they could share what they know. So, with this specific information (minus whatever photos or reports Grusch saw), Grusch is a second hand witness and Puthoff is a third hand "witness." Puthoff: "[Grusch] interviewed, as he claimed in his statement before Congress, over 40 individuals over a four-year period, and all this data was collected together, and it seems like there is that crash retrieval program." (Even Hal uses the word "claimed" with Grusch, and he also uses words that tell us (unless you're going to accuse him of lying) that he has NOT been read into any of those programs. "Seems like there is that crash retrieval program." SEEMS.) Puthoff: "So although I can't say that I personally have been absolutely briefed on the crash retrieval program..." (Pretty important sentence right there. He has heard things from folks (like the late Jim Ryder of Lockheed?) who claimed to have worked in that program, but he hasn't officially been read in or had to sign any NDAs, so he can speak about some of it. See my post from yesterday where Grusch says he's lucky he never signed an NDA or he would have had to keep his mouth shut.) Puthoff: "...I've interacted with people like Grusch and many others whose...I just simply can't say I'm not hearing the truth. So, I would put my stamp on the idea that there is such a program." (He's making a judgment on what he has been told. Obviously, I can't 100% rule out that Puthoff hasn't had SOME access to some of this information, and maybe he's seen the same photos that Grusch and Davis have referenced, and Bigelow has hinted at in one of his interviews with George Knapp. But I don't believe Puthoff is on the very inside and just pretending that he's not. We still have yet to hear from someone who worked in those programs, hands on. And yes, I know Puthoff seemed confused when Gerb asked him about the Legacy program being shut down and the timing related to that. I hope The Good Trouble Show with Matt Ford asks Eric Davis about that today. Play the clip of it for Eric. And I also know that sometimes, based on Puthoff's words, it seems like he may be a firsthand witness, but I think that's him just being casual with his words. This interview from 2025 makes it pretty clear how he learned all of this information, or alleged information. My Opinion: Dr. Hal Puthoff has never been on the inside of any UFO-related Legacy program and he is NOT a gatekeeper.)](https://image.24vids.com/tw-2073806696078815538/amplify_video_thumb/2073804274254176256/img/lY8XEYm1uSZ45Ik6.jpg)
![One Again, Eric Davis Confirms He Interviewed Admiral Wilson "Jay [Stratton] put Dave [Grusch], and Dave's boss and I together, and I briefed them for 2.5 days [on UAP programs and crash retrievals]." ~Dr. Eric Davis (Here's Eric Davis telling you he interviewed Admiral Wilson without actually saying it. He also referenced General Jack Sheehan, who allegedly touched a craft. Sound isn't great so my transcript isn't perfect.) Davis: "One four-star General (Jack Sheehan, I believe. ~Joe) and one three-star Admiral (Tom Wilson) were able to locate these programs...and they uncovered them. One (Wilson) got a lot of resistance and a hostile reception and was told that he found who he was looking for, they were who they suspected of being. Yes, they were a UFO/UAP crash retrieval and reverse engineering program." (Those last two sentences are pretty much from the Wilson/Davis notes that Eric penned after his interview with Wilson in 2002) Davis: "The other one (Jack Sheehan) had a lot more political power behind him because of his stature as a four-star General. He was able to get into the program (and allegedly touch a craft) and use his authority and his access., I think they call that a Super User, who has access to all access programs. So he had the capability to look into that whole thing. "I was fortunate to meet Dave Grusch at the behest of Jay Stratton. Dave was an aero-liaison officer to the UAP Task Force. And Dave was working for his boss at the NRO. Jay put Dave, and Dave's boss and I together, and I briefed them for 2.5 days, just a week before COVID struck. And Dave took all of my classified and proprietary information of all the investigations I did at NIDS, AFRO and working for Hal Puthoff at EarthTech, and he took that data and ran with it. And what you now know the aftermath of that was his classified whistleblower complaint to the IG of the IC. So, there is a there there."](https://image.24vids.com/tw-1917993529802105117/amplify_video_thumb/1917992723044548612/img/YnmuasJ2j3uMkmFH.jpg)
![🔥🛸 "The startling thing is, is he's [the late Jim Ryder at Lockheed] revealing that he was one of the engineers that worked on the crash retrieval program with four other individuals." ~Eric Davis 🛸🔥 During AAWSAP, a senior VP at Lockheed (this is the late Jim Ryder) briefed Hal Puthoff, Colm Kelleher and Robert Bigelow, in a SCIF, about the crash retrieval program and that he (Ryder) had worked on for 20 years with four other people. In later interactions, he told Davis the same thing. They were all briefed up to the TS-SCI level but when they had more detailed questions, Ryder couldn't answer them because, "that's now rising up to the level of what's called the Waived Unacknowledged Special Access Program, which is the security cover that was provided for ALL of the crash retrieval programs that were going on since...probably that Italian crash of 1933 that had gotten recovered by the U.S. Army during its invasion of Italy in 1944, and transferred back to Wright Army Airfield that year. "This was kind of startling because now it's like, okay we're actually talking to somebody (Ryder) who's at a senior executive level in a major aerospace defense corporation that's pretty huge, and it's actually the largest in the world. And, of course, this is all in classified settings, so we know this is all legitimate. The only problem is we couldn't get further because we needed to get Waived Unacknowledged SAP clearances, and, unfortunately, I don't know what was going on in the background with that. I do know that Harry Reid and Jim Lacatksi attempted to get that kind of security clearances for all of us and Harry Reid failed because the Deputy Secretary of Defense during that period...William Lynn in the Obama administration. So [Lynn] turned down Harry Reid's request."](https://image.24vids.com/tw-2011941937885167781/amplify_video_thumb/2011940205515980803/img/eamH6KJsXi1cfnT_.jpg)
![▲ Davis: Lacatski Never Told Us We Had Made Progress with Reverse Engineering! ▲ (This may be kind of a big deal. I've posted several times about Lacatski's claim that we've reverse engineered craft, but not to their full extent. Say what? I've always been surprised that Lacatski said that. If it's true, it's HUGE. Today, Davis addressed it, and his answer seems to put to bed the claim that he's (Davis) been trying to hide any progress we may have made on that front, as others have suggested. Hell, I thought he might be downplaying any progress we've made on that because these guys (Eric, Lue, Stratton, etc.) don't want our adversaries to know certain things, and I thought that was one of those things. Yes, Davis has always downplayed (and pretty much rejected) the claim that we've made progress on the reverse-engineering front, but it now appears he was saying that only because that's what he had learned through his investigations and research and not because he was trying to protect that specific secret.) Dr. Eric Davis: "So the military was seeing triangles, and so, we were...so the AAASAP was trying to figure out the physics of how to do that type of propulsion. And [Lacatksi] was asked by Jeremy Kenyon Lockyer Corbell, "Do you think it's already been achieved by the U.S. government, or it hasn't, and that's why AAASAP had a lot of value?' And Jim Lacatski replied, 'It hasn't been achieved to its full extent (laughs).'" (As you've seen me ask more than a few times: If not to the full extent, how much? 50% 75? If we've really had success, that's an important question. Glad to see Davis and I are on the same page with that. And was Lacatski JUST referring to triangular craft, or all craft in our possession?) Davis: "So how much did they achieve it? 25% 50% 75% I don't know because he never told us! So, Hal Puthoff and I have talked about these things, and we're looking at each other like, 'Huh?' So, uhh...no, this isn't disinformation." (I've wondered on here if it was a disinformation attempt by Lacatski to trick our adversaries into thinking we may have made more progress than we actually have. But Davis appears to think otherwise.) Davis: "This is the DOPSR telling Jim what he can say publicly in his books versus what he can't say in his books. And they cleared him to say what he said, and obviously they cleared him to say what he said to Corbell and George Knapp." (Either that, or he slipped up during the interview with "Weaponized." But Lacatski seems to measure his words and he doesn't appear to be a guy who slips up like that. He's VERY hesitant to share too much because he's said that our adversaries are listening to every word he says or writes.) Davis: "I haven't read his second and third books yet, so I don't know if that thing about the triangles is even in there. I haven't gone all the way through the first book yet, either. So, it's real. Lacatski would have the eligibility for access." ~~~ The original exchange between Corbell and Lacatski... Jeremy Corbell: "We hear about all these people on military bases seeing triangles, and you're doing this study, AAWSAP to try to figure out the physics of how to do that. Do you think it's already been achieved by the U.S. government, or it hasn't, and that's why AAWSAP had a lot of value?" Lacatski: "It hasn't been achieved to its full extent."](https://image.24vids.com/tw-2073950830676652248/amplify_video_thumb/2073936760367972352/img/_NhaEXnYuuhK5014.jpg)
!["There was some pretty intense stuff about lifeforms, what they were doing." ~TB 💥 If Trump Waives Eric Davis' NDAs, Is This Some of What We Can Expect to Hear? 💥 (I may not be first with these clips but I try to include info. that you won't get anywhere else.) If that information about lifeforms, and what they were doing, was accurate, it's the type of information the world deserves to know. Was it Dr. Eric Davis who briefed him/them on that? I have a sneaking suspicion that it was, and I have NOT asked Davis about this.) "All these rumors that you hear...just the wild, crazy stuff, some of that stuff now I'm being briefed on and people are telling me...actually has occurred." ~TB ~ Sean Hannity 🇺🇸: "If I knew what you knew, I would not be able to sleep at night." Rep. Tim Burchett Press Office (TB): "Yeah, I was briefed in a situation, and they got into some pretty intense stuff." Hannity: "Can I ask who briefed you?" Burchett: "You can ask but I can't tell." (Again: My Guess: Dr. Eric Davis. I could be wrong, but it makes a lot of sense to me. Here's why... This is a message from Davis to me, from January... Why Won't Davis Share What He Know with Congress? Davis: "I already shared my information in a Pentagon SCIF with the SASC staff in Oct. 2019 and in a controlled access conference room in a Senate office building with the SSCI staff in Oct. 2019 and at a defense company’s controlled access room in June 2021. "Then I shared it with Rep. Anna Paulina Luna's committee in a House of Representatives office building SCIF last May. (Burchett is part of that committee, and that's one reason why I feel like Davis is the one Burchett is referring to when he says someone briefed him on some intense stuff.) Davis: "So the 'Why won’t he?' has already been answered." Murgia: "So what changes if a President waives your NDAs?" Davis: "If the POTUS were to waive my NDAs, I could share everything I know with the public." (PUBLIC!) ~~~ Hannity: "Have you ever told Donald Trump about all the obstacles they're throwing in your face?" Burchett: "No, I haven't. As a matter of fact, I had a discussion with somebody last week. They said, you need to have lunch with [Trump]. It's very difficult to get, you know, he's, right now, of course, things going on all over the world." Hannity: "But you're also saying, on the other hand, on a need-to-know basis. And that means the President's not on a need-to-know basis? Our duly-elected president, information is being withheld from him?" Burchett: "I believe so. I was told that, even. Yeah, in the SCIF, this one time, where they asked me, where you're quoting, I mean, there was some pretty intense stuff about lifeforms, what they were doing. And different..." Hannity: "Lifeforms alive here? Lifeforms dead here?" Burchett: "Possibly. Both. Both." Hennity: "And vehicles that have been recovered here?" Burchett: "Yeah, and some that have possibly come here, and not in a crash-type setting (laughs). We had an individual that gave..." (Again, this feels like Davis was the guy briefing them. He has spoken about crashed AND landed craft, including the alleged Holloman AFB landing-and-meeting event.) Burchett: "And this was interesting about the whole thing was because, there's all the folks in there, and there's different groups of people, and Rep. Eric Burlison's a dear friend of mine. Because in the beginning, he was a big skeptic (According to Burlison, he still IS a skeptic. ~Joe), you know? And I asked him to join us in some of this stuff because I needed somebody that just wasn't like me, that just had been..." Hannity: "Skepticism's healthy." Burlison: "It's very healthy. I mean, you know...but a lot of people that were skeptics. But we were in this one meeting in a secure environment, and a member came in who is not really friendly to the cause. And really was a disrupter and started asking questions. And the person who was briefing us named names, dates, times, places, events, people." (That sounds exactly like the meticulous, and detail-orientated, Dr. Eric Davis. 😎 ) Burchett: "Because I'd asked a question about Jimmy Carter. There was talk, I just threw it out there, that Carter... I didn't like his politics, but I don't question his faith." (Sad that Burchett even feels the need to mention Carter's politics.) Burchett: "And they said that [Carter] was briefed at one time and became physically upset with the information that he was given." Hannity: "Of course he did." (This seemed like snide remark from Hannity, as in, Carter wasn't a real man and he couldn't handle information like that without getting upset. Cheap shot, but that's Hannity.) Burchett: "Yeah, but he had actually seen a UFO, it's a documented thing. And this person that was briefing us gave the date of that meeting and he gave the receipts. He said, 'You can go to the Carter library,' and he gave the date. and said... And there was, I think four people in the meeting (with Carter), and they listed three of them, and one of them, they weren't sure who it was. So it was probably, you know, CIA or something. And it ended up upsetting [Carter] so much that they pretty much had to clear his calendar for a while. But what is that?" (Again, that sounds like a Davis briefing.) Burchett: "And the thing is, everything that I've...all these rumors that you hear in the movies, in the books and the magazines that I read growing up, just the wild, crazy stuff, some of that stuff now I'm being briefed on and people are telling me that this is actually has occurred. And that, to me, is, I wonder, is this stuff being planted? Is it being pushed out, so that we gradually get a hold of it?" (Hopefully, we get to hear what Burchett and the others heard so we can judge the veracity of it and see if we can somehow confirm any of it.)](https://image.24vids.com/tw-2072187421534630291/amplify_video_thumb/2072165532250566656/img/E8fKEAGfEsjiSLXF.jpg)
!["It's not a congressional program. Only the president can say anything about this." ~Semivan Semivan: Congress Doesn't Have the Right or Need-To-Know About a Crash Retrieval Program Thoughts? Grusch decided Congress had a need-to-know, and Congress hadn't been told. "Which I don't think was true." ~Semivan ~~~ Semivan: "Some of the congressmen now that are being briefed (laughs) on it are not very happy because they think they have a right to know this. And I like to point out, I spoke to a couple of the committees and I told them, 'Look, it's not a congressional program. It's an executive program, and it's run by the president and only the president can say anything about this. I can't say anything about it, the president has to come out.'" (Note: Semivan was careful to cover his azz and say these were answers about a, hypothetical, crash retrieval program. Although, from his past comments, I'm pretty sure he knows (or at least believes) it exists. See here: Semivan Blockbuster I know where the legacy programs are located. You should take [Grusch] and everything he says to the bank. It's our inalienable right to know about this. ) ~ Semivan: "It's what Dave Grusch said. Dave Grusch...worked for AARO (He meant the UAPTF) and he went to various intelligence agencies and questioned the people that were actually working on these programs. And they all told them the same thing, the same story. So he takes this back, and he decides Congress has a need-to-know, and Congress hasn't been told. Which I don't think was true. He didn't know that, but he thought the public also had a right to know. And I'm perfectly fine... He did the exact right thing you're supposed to do if you're a government employee if you think there's something going on that's not legal. And he did it the right way. So, I give him a load of credit for that. And then he explains what it was, and then he's briefing some of the congressmen on this. Now the congressmen are upset, saying, 'Well, wait a minute, we're in charge of spending for the government and what have you. We should have the ability to know this.' But what Congress doesn't realize is these programs, you know, they exist at a very, very high classified level. They're Special Access Programs, and I would say, maybe the Gang of Eight, if them, have the clearances to basically know of these programs. And even if they were to be told of the programs, they could never discuss it, nor could they ever debate it, publicly. It's not theirs to do. They would be told, officially, but just, you know, as a professional courtesy that these things are going on. "Don't forget, the CIA works directly for the President of the United States, all right? So if the CIA would be running this program (AFAIK, they are. ~Joe), they just, basically, talk to the president and the president talks to them. And those conversations are not subject to congressional notification, approval or anything else. And when CIA goes to the oversight committees and briefs their programs, the committees can't tell them, 'We don't like what you're doing.' Well, they can say that. But the only thing they can do, they can't stop the programs. All they can do is stop the funding. "So, you know, the intelligence agencies that work directly for the president answer to him and him only, really. They do tell Congress, because Congress does give them money and there is...that's been going on since 1975 now, and it's a great thing to do. And they've been very, very open and honest with Congress, and Congress, I think, has been wonderful about it. As a matter of fact, you know, Congress has, basically, said in some of these programs, 'Holy cow, this is great! Give a round of applause, you need more money, because what you guys are doing [is] great.' The relationship has always been very good. I thought, you know, between them." (But the folks in the intelligence agencies who are aware of the alleged Legacy UAP-related programs, do NOT tell Congress about them. Except, as Semivan said, MAYBE some members of the Gang of Eight. Certainly NOT members of Congress like Rep. Anna Paulina Luna or Rep. Eric Burlison. I think they have zero chance of being read in right now.) Semivan: "But that doesn't mean if the president, like Truman or Eisenhower, issued a presidential executive-action document or something along those lines, where he said, 'This is an extraordinary circumstance. I'm creating this super-secret thing that nobody gets to know about, not even Congress.' That's, basically, his...he can do that. That's in the power, that's in the Constitution. He has that right to do that without acknowledging." (THAT is how these alleged Legacy UAP programs are protected.) Semivan: "Now, has he (a president) done that without telling somebody? Probably there's one or two people in Congress that know about it at any given time. Maybe one or two people in the National Security Council know about it. Most presidents probably got a very generalized briefing on it, you know, saying, 'Yeah, this is real. If you wanna know more, we can tell you more. But, if you know more then you don't have plausible deniability anymore. And/or, you can't do anything about it anyway, because we don't understand it. But if something happens [and] we discover something that's groundbreaking or earth shattering, we'll come back and tell ya.' "So, imagine if you're a President of the United States. Do you really want to know this? Do you really want to have that hanging on your shoulders? I think not. Particularly when you have somebody else doing the job for you."](https://image.24vids.com/tw-1964791704948703671/amplify_video_thumb/1964765866677141504/img/Oc6iqDE9eLvsulqq.jpg)
![💥 LAP Alert 💥 "I did this sort of spy thing where I changed hotel rooms and I changed taxis. I was making sure I wasn’t followed." ~Knapp Is Lacatski Lying to Us About the Craft and Breaching the Hull? ~ "If not for that [2017 NYT] story about AATIP and the problems that [Lacatski] saw with it, he would never have mentioned [AAWSAP]...I don't think, ever." ~Knapp (So, in other words...thank you from the UFO community, to the NYT, for getting it wrong? 🙂) ~ Jeremy Kenyon Lockyer Corbell: "Should we listen to Dr. James Lacatski on UFOs, on the fact, or the idea, that our government has at least one, he's admitted, and we breached the hull? Should we listen to him, George?" George Knapp: "I know a lot of people have noticed that he's talked about his role in counterintelligence as part of the AAWSAP program. And because they equate counterintelligence with lies, false info., cover stories, misdirection. Aha! He's putting out a bunch of false info. a decade after he retired from government service." (I saw one person suggest that, and I thought it was a questionable take...) Grant Lavac: "Given that Dr. James Lacatski was the 'counterintelligence coordinator' for AAWSAP, how much confidence can we invest in the veracity of his public statements that 'at least one recovered craft of unknown origin, a flying machine with no wings, no engine, no fuel, and no fuel tanks' is in the possession of the US government and that they had 'breached the hull' of the UFO? In the context of the counterintelligence value of UAP/UFO, his comments in this most recent interview on WEAPONIZED (edited for brevity) only raise more questions for me." ~~~ Knapp: "A, it's not [Lacatski]. He's not out there beating the bushes. He's talked to us, but that's pretty much it. He's telling the full story as much as he can in a series of books. And I was co-author on two of those, not on this one. And, you know, I remember the first time I met him, it was in 2018." ~ (In April of 2019, Knapp shared that story, minus Lacatski's name, at UFO MegaCon. Knapp in 2019: "I thought today I would share with you, sort of the informational foundation that I’ve acquired. So, one year ago, I made this trip to Washington, D.C. at the invitation of Senator Harry Reid. It was St. Patrick’s Day, 2018 and I already knew a little bit about AATIP and AAWSAP and what they’ve been studying and where the money came from and how the program was created. I did this sort of spy thing where I changed hotel rooms and I changed taxis. I was making sure I wasn’t followed. And if there was ever actually, anybody following me, they must have thought I looked ridiculous because it was way over the top. "But I ended up having to meet with Senator Reid and some other people who were directly involved in these programs and they gave me a download. And I thought I knew a lot about these programs when I went there and realized that I only knew a little tiny bit. The purpose of this was to learn about these programs. We all know about AATIP, but in reality, there was something before that. "I sat down for a couple of hours with Senator Reid and other people whose names, they don’t want to be known. They brought me up to speed on how AATIP was created. How its predecessor was under way for a number of years. It coexisted for a long time. People in this room. People who investigate this topic may have suspected for a long time that there was some kind of a program that still existed. We’ve all heard that Project Bluebook was the end. 1969 it ended and the government was done with UFOs. They closed up shop. And the reason they closed it down is because there was no evidence that it involved national security. "And we all knew that was baloney because of the stories that we’ve seen that are really well documented. For example, UFOs over nuclear missile bases. UFO encounters with the military installations and atomic facilities. Things of that sort the have been well documented over the years. There are cases that involved national security. So at the end of Blue Book, of course, this memo said, alright, any cases involving national security will continue to be investigated in the regular way. Well, what the heck was the regular way? We didn’t know. Well now we do know. At least a little bit of it." (Project Blue Book was shut down in December of 1969, but a few months earlier, in October, we had the Bolender memo, which noted that "reports of UFOs which could affect national security should continue to be handled through the standard Air Force procedure designed for this purpose." What standard Air Force procedure? The regular way? Where did those cases go? We still don't know what Bolender was referring to in that memo.) ~ Knapp in 2019: "And one of the regular ways was this program called AATIP. So I went on this trip. [and] I learned this stuff about AATIP. I had known a lot about it before but I got this briefing about this alphabet soup of different programs, how they began and what they studied. December 2017, the New York Times breaks this story about AATIP. Now, I had known about it for a long time because I lived in Las Vegas. I knew Bob Bigelow. I knew Harry Reid. We’d talk about UFO stuff and what was going on. "So when I was told the New York Times was gonna break the story, I’m kind ticked off about it. Because hey, I’ve been sitting on this for a long time. Why don’t I get to break the story? And they had to, one after another, gently remind me, 'You know. You’re not the New York Times.' Which I had to admit! It was true. And if I had done the story, the Times had said that they weren’t going to do it if somebody else breaks it. So, if I had done it, it’d be another story from a UFO reporter. "The New York Times did it and they changed everything. Because they did it, wider organizations did it. Some of them took shots at the New York Times because The Times got the story and they didn’t. But that story was accurate, to a degree. But the story that it told was not the full story. AATIP, that we know about…the AATIP that studies nuts and bolts saucers…case of UFOs that have encounters with military units such as the USS Nimitz, that is studied by a group of people, Lue Elizondo was the head of it. "It’s not so much a program as it was a loose network of intelligence officials in different agencies, including the Air Force and the Navy, CIA, DIA, DARPA…there might be a couple of other agencies. But a case would come in from any one of their units [and] it would be shared with this group of people, analysis would be done, evidence would be looked at and then stashed in a draw and nobody ever sees it. It’s not passed up the chain of command. "In 2007, that changed. One of the guys (Lacatski. ~Joe 2025) I met with in this meeting in Washington is the one who changed it. He had been in the same position that Lue Elizondo had been in. And his name is just not out there. He grew frustrated with what was happening with the phenomenon and he suspected that UFOs flying around the sky, buzzing our military units every once in a while, is not the full story. Even if you could solve that part of the mystery it wouldn’t solve the bigger part of the picture. "So he grew interested in Skinwalker Ranch and he had read the (Knapp/Kelleher – 'Hunt For The Skinwalker') book. And after he read it, he called up Bob Bigelow and said…actually, he wrote him a letter and said, 'Hey, can I go to the ranch…go look around? I’m with the DIA.' Bigelow says, 'Come on out to Las Vegas and I’ll take you there.' And that’s what happened. He flew to Las Vegas. They flew on Bigelow’s jet. They went to the ranch. "This guy’s not there fifteen minutes and he has an experience. And I’m not gonna go into detail. I’m hoping that he’s going to maybe come forward at some point and describe his experience. But it was just for him. Of all the people in this room, in the encounter, he was the only one who could see it. He’s the only one who had an angle on this thing that appeared. And he’s pretending that he’s not seeing it but it’s right out of the corner of his eye. And he doesn’t say anything until he leaves the ranch. And he gets off and he asks Bigelow if he had seen it. And he had not. The other people who had been in the room had not seen it. "He flies back to Las Vegas, goes back to Washington, D.C. and looks up Harry Reid and tells him about it. Now Reid had some experience in these matters that I’ll get into in a little bit. But as a result of that conversation, Reid, who had an interest in UFOs and had maintained that interest over many years – and I can attest to that personally – called in a couple of his friends in the Senate – Daniel Inouye and Ted Stevens. They had a conversation in a secure room and they decided to provide some funding for a much broader study. Something that looked at…beyond flying saucers, that looked at other paranormal aspects…supernatural aspects that we would not normally associate with aliens or ETs. Assuming that that’s what this is, which I’m not sure anyone knows for sure. And that is how AAWSAP was born. The Advanced Aerospace Weapon System Applications Program." ~~~ Knapp Yesterday: "The only reason [Lacatski] came forward, he was ticked off about how AATIP had been described in major media reports, and no mention had been given to the actual, real program. That one that had a $22 million budget, lasted 27 months, and which put together the biggest UFO data warehouse in history, that had written all these papers that still have not been released." (In the most-recent interview (Part 1) with Weaponized, Lacatski let it fly with his issues related to the 2017 NYT article: "The initial reporting...by the New York Times story in 2017 was totally inaccurate. Contrary to what some people claim, the authors knew my name and position at AAWSAP, yet never attempted to contact me. Likewise, the The Washington Post. POLITICO (laughs) contacted me within hours after the articles were published in the free publications, asking for my opinion. They knew my name, they had my phone number. Why didn't they contact me [beforehand]?" ~Dr. James Lacatski on Weaponized ~ Knapp: "So, Jim was a counterintelligence guy for AAWSAP, but in this role. He wasn't putting out cover stories or lies, he didn't put out anything. The world didn't hear that AAWSAP existed until years later, at least by that name. There was one statement made to the press about that program. It was by Robert Bigelow, whose company, BAASS, got the contract. A week after he signed it, he came on with me on Coast to Coast AM and said, 'We got this program dealing with UFOs, we have an unnamed partner, and we're excited to get going.' That was it. "Jim Lacatski wasn't putting out PR releases about AAWSAP. There was nothing. That was the last thing anybody said until the New York Times did the AATIP story, and then Jim Lacatski felt the real story was being covered up. If not for that story about AATIP and the problems that he saw with it, he would never have mentioned this. I don't think ever." (Well, then, thank you to the NYT journalists and editors for pissing off Lacatski!) Knapp: "You'll recall, AAWSAP, at the time that things went downhill, that the funding was moved away, they were trying to make it into a SAP, a Special Access Program. And if it had happened, we probably would never have heard of it. If it had happened, Lue Elizondo would have been the counterintelligence guy for AAWSAP, that he had already talked to Lacatski. "But Lacatski is not proclaiming the greatness of the program. He's not out there beating the bushes on podcasts and newscasts, other than with us, and he never put out in counterintelligence. His role, counterintelligence, meant something different for AAWSAP. The thing that DIA had told him was, 'Look, you know, it's not a rogue program. I know it gets weird into some of the phenomena that was at Skinwalker Ranch and other places. We don't care. Here's what we care about: Don't let the secret out. We don't want to see this on the front page of the Washington Post. We want it kept secret.' (John Greenewald was one person questioning whether AAWSAP was actually a prosaic program and Lacatski just decided to go rogue with a foray into UFOs and the paranormal.) Greenewald Tweet: "Did the U.S. government really sanction this, and if so, is this really how it was run? Or was this a rogue operation by a select few on the inside playing with Uncle Sam's coffers?" (Greenewald was quote tweeting a Greenstreet hit-piece video on AAWSAP. In his interview on Weaponized aired over the past few weeks, Lacatski said that former Deputy Director of AARO, Tim Phillips, also used the "rogue" word when describing AAWSAP. Did DIA really not know what AAWSAP was about? Did Lacatski go rogue and turn a program that was supposed to look at prosaic, advanced technology into one that studied UFOs and the paranormal? Here's an exchange from the 2023 interview Knapp and Corbell did with Lacatski and Colm Kelleher.) Kelleher: "The critical part of AAWSAP that we tried to convey in 'Skinwalkers at the Pentagon,' was that there were two fundamental, parallel tracks that AAWSAP ran on. The first one was the examination of UFO performance. And, you know, the UFO performance part was getting all of the data from eyewitnesses, plus deploying sensors into the field, in order to gather data on the performance of UFOs. That was track number one. And track number two was: What effects do UFOs have on humans? That was a parallel track that, from the get go, AAWSAP decided, unambiguously, to run both tracks in parallel. We documented psychological effects, and then we also documented paranormal effects." Lacatski: "Anything can be said on the internet it seems, factual or not. Well, one thing that is not factual is, DIA knew what it was getting into in regard to both aspects that Colm just described to you. And let me end my statement right here. We had no choice but to pursue both aspects." (That was a poor way of him saying: The claim that DIA was unaware of AAWSAP looking into all aspects of UFOs, including the paranormal, is NOT true.) Lacatski: "I want to emphasize something I said on my first and only interview. It was a closed program. It operated very similar to a SAP. The director, the director of analysis, and my office chief...and, of course, division chief, knew about this program. No one else did. Now, I was also protected by the stovepipe nature of that. I did not have to address political-type questions. I was insulated, but they were, too. There was no one else. People in the surrounding cubicles didn't know. Nothing was purposely being hid. It was a closed, stovepipe system, and it needed to be. It needed to be operated that way." ~~~ Knapp: "And so, Jim Lacatski took it on himself, put it in his own hands. He and Colm Kelleher interviewed all these people who applied for the jobs, the 50 full-time positions that they staffed, in a matter of months. They did background checks, they required security clearances for all those people, and they were worried about leaks. They didn't want information to get out. "They also were concerned about espionage by foreign players, by foreign companies, things of that sort. And some of that really did happen. As Jim has shared with us, there were a couple of phones that were transmitters that were found inside Bigelow Aerospace, inside the Bigelow, uh, facilities, and it was very alarming because they weren't sure who was doing it. I think they think it was a foreign government. I'm not going to say which one, uh, they suspected the most." (Lacatski said that the phones in question were made in China.) Knapp: "But, and then they also found weird frequencies emanating from Skinwalker Ranch. That's not strange, and there's a lot of unusual stuff that happens there, but it was some sort of a an espionage program that they believed was was not only looking at the ranch, but also at BAASS. "That was his primary concern. He was worried that the story gets out, because secrecy was of paramount interest to the heads of DIA and he's worried about the information getting out to the public. Because once it happened, then the knives come out in the Pentagon and within the intelligence community, which is kind of what happened. A memo was sent from Harry Reid's office, let other people know that AAWSAP existed, and that's when things started getting problematic." Corbell: "The bugging thing. So, it's not just like Bigelow Aerospace was tapped with something, he said, specifically, AAWSAP, right? So they were looking at that new UFO program. And I don't know how public this is, but he did say it was - not just him, other people have all said - it was multiple nations, multiple, different devices from those phones. And he also said that they worked with FBI, they had FBI liaisons looking at the ranch property, and also at Bigelow Aerospace. "Because, remember, they were supposed to receive a transfer of materials. That's why they reverse, reverse engineered (laughs), you know, they built everything to be able to hold SCIF-capable and material-capable property at that classification level. So, look, I think if we pull it back, the whole idea is, James Lacatski made a statement at some point that he was, you know, head of, or part of, or running the counterintelligence for AAWSAP. But his point was to keep AAWSAP itself secret from foreign nations. So then he has to keep it secret from the U.S. He did it. He did a great job. They actually kept it secret. That doesn't mean he's going out and creating false information to the public like he's been accused of. "So, should we listen to Jim Lacatski? That was like, you know, the main question. Oh, one second. He also identified that there is currently a counter-programming, counterintelligence operation going on to the American public, but not against the American public, by AARO." (In other words, spread misinformation to the American public so they can advance their goal of misinforming and confusing our adversaries who are always listening. National security! IMO, that's only acceptable if we're talking specifics related to propulsion, technology and weapons that can be used to give us a leg up on said adversaries. But everything else should come out and be made public. We shouldn't be told a bunch of lies about information we paid for and that could, potentially, give us some clarity about our species and other lifeforms on this planet.) Corbell: That was so clear in our interview with him that he said that, you know, 'Look, they're acting this way. They are telling you lies about AAWSAP and what happened.' And that's why he said, 'My books, I'm a government employee. This was paid by taxpayers. I'm trying to give you information.' And that's what his books are. "So it's clear from these rounds of interviews that we just had with Dr. Lacatski that he supports a controlled UFO disclosure. He made that very clear. So should we listen to what he has to say? I mean, he was a big dog, right, George?" Knapp: "He was the head of the largest U.S. government-funded UFO investigation in history, that we know of. He worked with Colm Kelleher, who was the boots-on-the-ground guy in Las Vegas. He worked with Jay Stratton. Stratton's role in the development of AAWSAP has not been really fully explored, but he's got a book coming out at some point, once it gets through the DOPSR process. But then we'll get additional information to buttress what Lacatski has said."](https://image.24vids.com/tw-1991268528771748027/amplify_video_thumb/1990932248116539392/img/QA2EH0b-Bfna8TB4.jpg)
