BITCOIN RAILS #61: QUANTUM CRYPTOGRAPHY FOR BITCOIN | with Dan Boneh Dan Boneh 🔗 YOUTUBE: 🌿 SPOTIFY: One of the most prolific and influential cryptographers in the world, it’s difficult to fully quantify the impact that Dan Boneh has had on Bitcoin and digital assets more broadly. Through both... his own research and his mentorship of some of the space’s most important contributors — e.g. Andrew Poelstra, Benedikt Bünz ☕️, and Robin Linus ⛊ — few people have done more to shape the cryptographic foundations underlying modern blockchains and digital finance. More recently, Dan co-authored Google's widely discussed paper, “Securing Elliptic Curve Cryptocurrencies against Quantum Vulnerabilities,” which reduced prior estimates of the resources required to run Shor’s algorithm against the elliptic-curve cryptography used by Bitcoin. The paper reignited debate around quantum computing timelines and the long-term security assumptions behind modern cryptocurrencies. In this episode of Bitcoin Rails, Dan and I discuss the current state of quantum computing, its potential implications for Bitcoin, and how he believes the Bitcoin community should think about preparing for a post-quantum future over the coming decade and beyond. And yes, Dan shares his take on the “when quantum” question in the interview, among other key perspectives. This episode of Bitcoin Rails is brought to you by my NEW sponsors: LayerTwo Labs LayerTwo Labs — developing research, software, and technologies for scaling Bitcoin via the integration of Drivechains (BIP 300/301) Hashi on Sui — a primitive for executing Bitcoin Defi transactions, without having to trust a federated bridge or other centralized entity BitBox BitBox — an open-source Bitcoin-only hardware wallet, with smooth UX and no compromises on security. Check out Bitbox [dot] swiss and use code BITCOINRAILS to get a discount TIMESTAMPS: 00:00 — Intro and Dan’s history with cryptography and Bitcoin 11:44 — Shor's algorithm: how a 1994 paper became cryptography's most important threat 16:39 — Building a quantum computer: superconducting qubits vs neutral atoms 25:37 — When should we start worrying about quantum computers? The timeline debate 31:51 — Have we already reached quantum computing's “ahá” moment? 39:09 — Inside the Google paper: how Shor's algorithm was optimized 49:57 — The Bitcoin mempool attack and the 10-minute window 59:21 — Mitigation: what should Bitcoin do to prepare for quantum? 1:11:54 — Hash-based vs lattice-based signatures: Dan's case for lattice 1:23:15 — ZK proofs, BIP361, and what to do with Satoshi's coins 1:31:52 — Encrypted mempools and MEV 1:38:29 — Why Bitcoin will survive quantum and Dan's message to Bitcoin buildersshow more

@danboneh FYI BIP-361 is a 5 year window ~after activation~ for folks to migrate to PQC. 3 years after activation: disallow deposits. 2 years after disallowing deposits, disallow spends w/o PQ proof. And of course, activation won't happen any time soon; it's not even currently proposed.

@danboneh Good note! Shared/RTed ed for clarity 🫡

Special thanks to @robin_linus for making this interview possible — and for helping me prepare. Honorary mention to both @apruden08 and @reardencode for helping me prep. We went pretty deep on the Google paper, and I think I was able to ask the tough questions with your help and guidance!

@danboneh "It's insane to say that Bitcoin will not solve the quantum problem." — @danboneh Great interview!

@danboneh 💯💯💯

Also worth noting, Dan shares his fondness for @tdryja “Lifeboat” proposal in the interview ❤️

CC: @dallairedemers thought you might appreciate 💃

@danboneh Awesome interview! thanks! Strongly suggest anyone to take a very meticulous reading, Guys, Do NOT get AI to read for you although I dis0bey. Meanwhile I wrote down some other tweets abt this.

@danboneh Thank you for watching and thoughtfully discussing! ❤️🙏

Forgive my bluntness, but I've watched many programs like yours, and the guests you invite aren't PQC professionals. First, you need to distinguish their research areas. There's a significant gap between the inventors of post-quantum cryptography and those applying it, as well as between them and traditional cryptography professionals. They're simply not worth trusting! Please think about it.

Bitcoin quantum mitigation is wildly multidisciplinary — anyone who speaks on this topic with authority should have a diverse range of academic and professional trainings in related subjects. Dan Boneh is probably the single most important cryptographer in the blockchain space. Perhaps there are specialists that have expertise in PQC specifically, but those folks would not even remotely compare in their abilities to understand Bitcoin specifically. On balance I’d put Dan Boneh in top 5 experts worth listening to on this subject.

@danboneh dan boneh speaks like the stars align in his favor every time he opens his mouth

@danboneh its wild - so incredibly well spoken - the ultimate professor vibe

@danboneh Good interview, added to the BCH Podcast FAQ on Quantum:

@danboneh Absolute legend

@danboneh Great episode to learn a lot about cryptography and quantum from @danboneh

@danboneh Well done @isabelfoxenduke @danboneh super interview.

@danboneh 🙏❤️

@danboneh Interesting, neutral atoms QCs are the new sexy thing now... Great alpha 👀

@danboneh yessss neutral atoms so hot right now lol

@danboneh Lattices are really cool

@danboneh I agree! As does Dan it sounds like from the interview :)

@danboneh Was a good interview. Much more interested to hear him talk about cryptography rather than QC progress. He mentions 2 modalities, yet the QBI has 5. Unless people are breaking NDA's, it's impossible for him to know the current state of quantum.

@danboneh Good

So amazing to have these episodes with the real big brains! Regarding “1:23:15 — ZK proofs, BIP361, and what to do with Satoshi's coins” - I am not so sure that it is as obvious that the “burned coins fork” will have higher long term value than the “non-burned coin fork”. - not to say that they won’t, but simple observing in the altcoin space, many many crypto coins (and meme coins) have exercised burning strategy (sometimes huge huge %) but do not achieve the NGU outcome they desired, - demand probably generally play a bigger part of what makes something NGU vs little demand but burning a huge bunch of supplies. - and if the social and psychological perception is that not burning coins (NOT tampering with token economics) is what gives BTC true value, bc “no one can fuck with someone else’s private keys which they do not own” - letting those vulnerable coins be quantum hacked, let it naturally be played out in the free market, let the quantum Searchers sell as they wish, after a while, it might be possible that price may be back to equilibrium medium to long term (which may overtake the value of “burned coins fork”.) Is a scenario that we should also be considering/debating before finalizing an approach. Cc @brian_trollz Thanks for the valuable episodes on all quantum quests ❤️🙏

@danboneh All experts know that breaking ECC, specifically the one behind #Bitcoin is only theoretical and will not happen in the next 100 years but the temptation to control #Bitcoin is such that they are willing to say it will happen. Truly sad.

@danboneh 1/n Based on Prof. Boneh's remarks above, I believe his constructive suggestions can be summarized as follows, correct me if I was wrong, Prof. Boneh @DanBoneh

@danboneh can anyone tell me, will people need to move their coins to post quantum addresses if this is ever implemented? meaning whole network would need to generate new seed phrases?

@danboneh 1/n A great interview! thanks! To grasp more implicit/explicit meaning fr. Prof. Boneh, I prefer to anylze fr: 1:41:30, correct me if I was wrong, Prof. Boneh, please! "We should take our time, we shouldn't rush, we have time, not forever." Does it indicate implicitly...

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@danboneh Quantum Bitcoin talk got my brain overheating today seriously