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How Can Homosexuality Be Wrong If It Doesn't Harm Anyone? | Voddie Baucham, J. D. Greear, and Russell Moore on July 3 of 2013 What’s happened to Moore and Greear?

Terri Green

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28,972 次观看 • 1 个月前 •via X (Twitter)

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“How can homosexuality be wrong if it doesn’t harm anyone?” — Voddie Baucham explains why it is harmful

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.Russell Moore: "This isn't just cat memes... We act as though it doesn't matter if we lie our way to the truth if we just bear false witness against people, claim that they're abducting pets, using every kind of stereotype and demonization— it's morally sick and morally wrong."

.Russell Moore: "This isn't just cat memes... We act as though it doesn't matter if we lie our way to the truth if we just bear false witness against people, claim that they're abducting pets, using every kind of stereotype and demonization— it's morally sick and morally wrong."

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Remembering Voddie: A Short Road Trip DL I heard of the home-going of our dear brother Voddie Baucham right after I finished setting up the fifth wheel here in Oklahoma on my fast trip home from the East Coast. This is another audio-only edition, only thirty minutes in length, but I felt it was appropriate to comment on the brother's life and ministry and how we should think about the loss of men like Johnny Mac, Charlie Kirk, and now Voddie Baucham.

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Both David Platt and J.D. Greear have the same basic response to the documentaries exposing their deceitfulness. 1. Assume the church members are wrong. Ruslan assumes the lawsuits were dropped. Uh, one is ongoing and the other one was decided against McLean, but Platt just lets Ruslan tell a lie favorable to himself. 2. Frame it as persecution. Both Greear and Platt frame opposition to their evil plans as in the same category as the persecution of brothers and sisters overseas. They make it sound pious, because they admit they're not experiencing the *extent* of persecution, but they put their plight in the same *category.* It's somehow persecution. 3. Don't give any actual answers. Neither Platt nor Greear answer any of the actual objections to their church takeover plans. They just try to give spiritual people connect with because we all go through trials in our own lives. 4. Imply the issue is over fidelity to Christ. Platt talks about how he couldn't compromise on justice, as if that's what he was asked to do. Greear makes out like he's offending people because he preaches the Gospel. He even conflates the law and gospel, which is another more serious matter. But, the point is, they are righteous, their critics are not.

Both David Platt and J.D. Greear have the same basic response to the documentaries exposing their deceitfulness. 1. Assume the church members are wrong. Ruslan assumes the lawsuits were dropped. Uh, one is ongoing and the other one was decided against McLean, but Platt just lets Ruslan tell a lie favorable to himself. 2. Frame it as persecution. Both Greear and Platt frame opposition to their evil plans as in the same category as the persecution of brothers and sisters overseas. They make it sound pious, because they admit they're not experiencing the extent of persecution, but they put their plight in the same category. It's somehow persecution. 3. Don't give any actual answers. Neither Platt nor Greear answer any of the actual objections to their church takeover plans. They just try to give spiritual people connect with because we all go through trials in our own lives. 4. Imply the issue is over fidelity to Christ. Platt talks about how he couldn't compromise on justice, as if that's what he was asked to do. Greear makes out like he's offending people because he preaches the Gospel. He even conflates the law and gospel, which is another more serious matter. But, the point is, they are righteous, their critics are not.

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Neil, I understand that you love your pastor, but your love should cause you to call him to repentance instead of trying to justify his statements (Reader, click through and read Neil's small thread and his quotes from John Calvin before you read my response). Neil, 1) Greear does not mention the Apostle Paul's "thorn in the flesh" at all in this sermon. He does not mention 2 Corinthians 12 where Paul describes his "thorn." 2) Greear does not mention John Calvin. This is you trying to put Calvin's words in your pastor's mouth. And you misinterpret Calvin as well. 3) In the video, Greear says we must be compassionate towards "gay and lesbian people" because God has not answered their prayer. He says that they got effected with a different form of the curse than other people. He treats "LGBT folks" as victims. But afflictions do not require repentance and victims are not required to repent. Greear teaches in this sermon that same-sex attraction is an affliction, not a sin to be turned from and rejected. He only condemns homosexual behavior as sin. 4) Greear also softens the heinousness of "LGBT sin" and the beauty of God's design by saying in this same sermon, "The gospel message is not “let the gay become straight” but “let the dead become alive.” Imagine saying, "The gospel message is not "let the racist become loving" but "let the dead become alive," or, "The gospel message is not "let the murderer become loving" but "let the dead become alive." Whenever your pastor pits "straight" against the gospel, he's pitting God's design against God's design, which is only what the devil does in Christ's temptation. It's pure empty rhetoric and deception. And Greear says, "Let me say something very clearly: Homosexuality does not send you to hell. And here’s how I know that: Being heterosexual doesn’t send you to heaven." Again, Jesus came to fulfill the law, and part of His perfect fulfillment of the law was His obedience to loving God and His neighbor perfectly, including His perfect love for His bride, the church. Jesus' fulfillment of "heterosexuality" for the church and in the church is indeed part of what sends Christians to Heaven. Again, this is just empty rhetoric from your pastor. Imagine saying, "Being Trans doesn't send you to Hell because being male or female doesn't send you to Heaven." Or, "Being racist doesn't send you to hell because loving your neighbor doesn't send you to heaven." And Greear says, "I mean, in terms of frequency of mention and the passion with which he mentions it, it would appear that quite a few other sins are more egregious in God’s eyes than homosexuality...The Bible appears more to whisper on sexual sin compared to its shouts about materialism and religious pride. And we see Jesus demonstrating great sympathy for those in sexual sin and great animosity toward the religiously proud. Jesus never said it was hard for the same-sex attracted to go to heaven; he did say it was easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle then for a religiously proud or materially wealthy person to get there. This is not to say it’s not sinful--just to say we often present it differently than the Bible does." The Bible most certainly does not "whisper" about any sin, especially the sin of homosexuality. Ask anyone in Hell. Or ask Jesus about the cross. Such a statement diminishes God's law, God's righteous wrath, and what Christ endured for us on the cross. Plus, what about Sodom and Gomorrah? What about the Canaanite cleansing? What about the flood? None of that sounds like whispering! And, speaking of the "frequency" of sins, if we followed Greear's logic, it would mean that God whispers about pedophilia, bestiality, necrophilia, sado-masochism, etc, because they're all mentioned in Scripture less than homosexuality. This is preposterous! God doesn't have to mention every sin multiple times or more than once to condemn it. The heinousness of sin is not due to how many times God condemns it. The heinousness of sin is determined based on how far away man is from obedience to God's command. And homosexuality is the literal turning upside down of God's design for our bodies. In all of Romans 1, homosexuality is the only sin mentioned that Paul calls, "unnatural." That's why it's more heinous rebellion against God and more detrimental to the person and nations who embrace it; it's further from God's design. 5) Your pastor tries to argue that the end of Romans 1 is Paul condemning everyone because they commit some of those sins. Again, Greear is trying to say that Paul is arguing that homosexuality is merely as heinous as the individual sins listed at the end of Romans 1. But Paul's point is that those who worship the creature, turn sexuality upside down, and dive into all sin, "all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice" (Rom 1:29). The list at the end of Romans 1 should be taken collectively not individually as Greear does. Their lives are full of habitual sin. That does not describe any Christian. If Romans 1 describes anyone in your church, he or she is not a Christian according to Paul. But Greear uses the list at the end of Romans 1 to say that all sin is the same in heinousness, which is not what Paul taught in Romans 1 or elsewhere. 6) The bottom line is that your pastor in this sermon adopts the world's definitions of "LGBT people." He treats SSA as ontological, as an affliction, not as a sin that must be repented of, not as a pathological sin pattern that God can change through Christ. Your pastor actually rebukes the church for condemning LGBT as a sin: "Listen: We only grasp the gospel when we understand, as Paul did, that we are the worst sinner we know (1 Tim 1:15)— and that if Jesus came to die for us, there is no one that he would not die for. When you realize that, you’ll cease being a Pharisaic teacher of the law and you’ll become a gospel witness. You’ll start loving your neighbor as someone made in the image of God and feeling compassion for them in their weakness." So, LGBT is weakness? That's not how the Bible describes sin. And Jesus never had compassion for sin or even sinners in their sin. He had compassion for image bearers in spite of their sin. That's the opposite of what Greear is doing. Greear softens the Bible's language against LGBT throughout this sermon in the name of "compassion." But Christ does not soften the law in the name of compassion; He does the opposite. He slays with the law to send the sinner running to Him. Remember how Christ addressed the self-righteous rich young ruler? As John Mark writes, "And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” Disheartened by the saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions" Mark 10:21-22). It's an indefensible sermon that even Greear would not have preached 10 years earlier. What changed? It wasn't the Bible. The culture got soft on LGBT and now your pastor is as well.

Neil, I understand that you love your pastor, but your love should cause you to call him to repentance instead of trying to justify his statements (Reader, click through and read Neil's small thread and his quotes from John Calvin before you read my response). Neil, 1) Greear does not mention the Apostle Paul's "thorn in the flesh" at all in this sermon. He does not mention 2 Corinthians 12 where Paul describes his "thorn." 2) Greear does not mention John Calvin. This is you trying to put Calvin's words in your pastor's mouth. And you misinterpret Calvin as well. 3) In the video, Greear says we must be compassionate towards "gay and lesbian people" because God has not answered their prayer. He says that they got effected with a different form of the curse than other people. He treats "LGBT folks" as victims. But afflictions do not require repentance and victims are not required to repent. Greear teaches in this sermon that same-sex attraction is an affliction, not a sin to be turned from and rejected. He only condemns homosexual behavior as sin. 4) Greear also softens the heinousness of "LGBT sin" and the beauty of God's design by saying in this same sermon, "The gospel message is not “let the gay become straight” but “let the dead become alive.” Imagine saying, "The gospel message is not "let the racist become loving" but "let the dead become alive," or, "The gospel message is not "let the murderer become loving" but "let the dead become alive." Whenever your pastor pits "straight" against the gospel, he's pitting God's design against God's design, which is only what the devil does in Christ's temptation. It's pure empty rhetoric and deception. And Greear says, "Let me say something very clearly: Homosexuality does not send you to hell. And here’s how I know that: Being heterosexual doesn’t send you to heaven." Again, Jesus came to fulfill the law, and part of His perfect fulfillment of the law was His obedience to loving God and His neighbor perfectly, including His perfect love for His bride, the church. Jesus' fulfillment of "heterosexuality" for the church and in the church is indeed part of what sends Christians to Heaven. Again, this is just empty rhetoric from your pastor. Imagine saying, "Being Trans doesn't send you to Hell because being male or female doesn't send you to Heaven." Or, "Being racist doesn't send you to hell because loving your neighbor doesn't send you to heaven." And Greear says, "I mean, in terms of frequency of mention and the passion with which he mentions it, it would appear that quite a few other sins are more egregious in God’s eyes than homosexuality...The Bible appears more to whisper on sexual sin compared to its shouts about materialism and religious pride. And we see Jesus demonstrating great sympathy for those in sexual sin and great animosity toward the religiously proud. Jesus never said it was hard for the same-sex attracted to go to heaven; he did say it was easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle then for a religiously proud or materially wealthy person to get there. This is not to say it’s not sinful--just to say we often present it differently than the Bible does." The Bible most certainly does not "whisper" about any sin, especially the sin of homosexuality. Ask anyone in Hell. Or ask Jesus about the cross. Such a statement diminishes God's law, God's righteous wrath, and what Christ endured for us on the cross. Plus, what about Sodom and Gomorrah? What about the Canaanite cleansing? What about the flood? None of that sounds like whispering! And, speaking of the "frequency" of sins, if we followed Greear's logic, it would mean that God whispers about pedophilia, bestiality, necrophilia, sado-masochism, etc, because they're all mentioned in Scripture less than homosexuality. This is preposterous! God doesn't have to mention every sin multiple times or more than once to condemn it. The heinousness of sin is not due to how many times God condemns it. The heinousness of sin is determined based on how far away man is from obedience to God's command. And homosexuality is the literal turning upside down of God's design for our bodies. In all of Romans 1, homosexuality is the only sin mentioned that Paul calls, "unnatural." That's why it's more heinous rebellion against God and more detrimental to the person and nations who embrace it; it's further from God's design. 5) Your pastor tries to argue that the end of Romans 1 is Paul condemning everyone because they commit some of those sins. Again, Greear is trying to say that Paul is arguing that homosexuality is merely as heinous as the individual sins listed at the end of Romans 1. But Paul's point is that those who worship the creature, turn sexuality upside down, and dive into all sin, "all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice" (Rom 1:29). The list at the end of Romans 1 should be taken collectively not individually as Greear does. Their lives are full of habitual sin. That does not describe any Christian. If Romans 1 describes anyone in your church, he or she is not a Christian according to Paul. But Greear uses the list at the end of Romans 1 to say that all sin is the same in heinousness, which is not what Paul taught in Romans 1 or elsewhere. 6) The bottom line is that your pastor in this sermon adopts the world's definitions of "LGBT people." He treats SSA as ontological, as an affliction, not as a sin that must be repented of, not as a pathological sin pattern that God can change through Christ. Your pastor actually rebukes the church for condemning LGBT as a sin: "Listen: We only grasp the gospel when we understand, as Paul did, that we are the worst sinner we know (1 Tim 1:15)— and that if Jesus came to die for us, there is no one that he would not die for. When you realize that, you’ll cease being a Pharisaic teacher of the law and you’ll become a gospel witness. You’ll start loving your neighbor as someone made in the image of God and feeling compassion for them in their weakness." So, LGBT is weakness? That's not how the Bible describes sin. And Jesus never had compassion for sin or even sinners in their sin. He had compassion for image bearers in spite of their sin. That's the opposite of what Greear is doing. Greear softens the Bible's language against LGBT throughout this sermon in the name of "compassion." But Christ does not soften the law in the name of compassion; He does the opposite. He slays with the law to send the sinner running to Him. Remember how Christ addressed the self-righteous rich young ruler? As John Mark writes, "And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” Disheartened by the saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions" Mark 10:21-22). It's an indefensible sermon that even Greear would not have preached 10 years earlier. What changed? It wasn't the Bible. The culture got soft on LGBT and now your pastor is as well.

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"Boiled down to the bone, Moore said in effect that our denial of a secular public square was in fact a 'denial of the gospel of Jesus Christ.' It is here that I would locate the central problem. If I can be opposed to a Muslim takeover of Dearborn and then have this represented as a denial of the gospel, we can see at a glance that for Moore the post-war secular consensus is in effect a gospel settlement. For him, to challenge it is to challenge the gospel. And that would be a glaring example of mixing partisan politics and theology, which I thought Moore was supposed to be against."

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