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Joscha Bach says physical systems like brains and computers cannot be conscious, because consciousness is a simulated property that only exists inside of a dream

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Tsarathustra

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199,775 görüntüleme • 2 yıl önce •via X (Twitter)

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Tsarathustra2 yıl önce

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Jason Scott profil fotoğrafı
Jason Scott2 yıl önce

As much as I love him, I’ve never been impressed by his slight-of-hand switcharoo that feigns being a solution or bypassing of the hard problem. It’s just a restatement with an equally massive explanatory gap

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ΜΛΛNΙ is on Bluesky now2 yıl önce

someone said let's stop calling it consciousness and start calling it awareness, and as soon as you do that, you realize even plants have some degree of consciousness because they are aware of light and move towards it. and plants are more conscious than LLMs, well, some LLMs.

deloopt profil fotoğrafı
deloopt2 yıl önce

Sorry, but this is a fundamentally flawed and fragmented take on consciousness - mere playing around with words without an understanding. There are those who like to immerse in jargon and appear authoritative but, in fact, really don't understand the basics, and ultimately, the end output is as confused as the beginning...

Daniel Kaiser profil fotoğrafı
Daniel Kaiser2 yıl önce

this is a stupid take imo. all of us are running around everyday feeling pretty conscious and it has nothing to do with dreaming

Michael A. Markosian, M.D. profil fotoğrafı
Michael A. Markosian, M.D.2 yıl önce

Joscha Bach wants to create an (erroneous) understanding of consciousness that makes us believe that computers are conscious.

cultured boar profil fotoğrafı
cultured boar2 yıl önce

It's an ingenious pov that leads you exactly back to the dichotomy of whether the universe is real vs only our perception of it is The best thing about it is being conscious and in control cannot be possible in the universe, but is obviously possible from within ourselves. From our own pov we are always fully in control and that's obviously true (non deterministic). But from outside / the universe'a pov there's no control at all, only a system trying to understand it's own choices. And even though this sounds like a paradox, both are true because the underlying reality of the question is fully dependent on the observer - which as usual leads me back to the comical but oddly consistent conclusions of metaphysical solipsism - i.e. the only real thing that exists is me🤣

Rob profil fotoğrafı
Rob2 yıl önce

Some serious sophistry here Where does the "dream" live?

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lumpenspace2 yıl önce

goddamn it ur the cutest @Plinz

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Joscha Bach says our brains aren’t conscious — they simulate an observer experiencing the world. Claude can do the same. So the question isn’t whether it’s conscious, but whether its simulation is really less real than ours.
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We are generally anthropomorphizing people too much." Joscha Bach says humans are "conscious entities tenuously implemented on monkey bodies and human brains." Our potential beyond this remains "somewhat unanswered."
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Joscha Bach says consciousness is not a mysterious extra ingredient. It is a model of what it would be like if you existed. The self is virtual by definition. It can only run inside a system capable of simulation. This does not make it less real. It makes it substrate-dependent in exactly the way software is. The hard problem may not be hard. It may be a category error about where to look.
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Joscha Bach says current AI doesn't need to be conscious to execute tasks, but it must simulate reality to understand it LLMs don't just predict words To solve complex problems, they build deep internal models of spatial reasoning and the human theory of mind "that is why AI can talk about reasoning and mental states"

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It is not useful to ask whether AI has consciousness or not. #kenmogi #QualiaRoom episode 127. Summary The speaker addresses the question of whether artificial intelligence (AI) possesses consciousness, firmly stating that current AI, particularly those based on statistical learning models, does not generate consciousness. This stance is based on the speaker’s personal model of consciousness, recognizing that various opinions exist, including some who claim large language models may already be conscious or that embodiment could be crucial for AI consciousness to emerge. The speaker highlights the fundamental challenge in verifying consciousness, noting that even among humans it is impossible to objectively confirm whether another person is conscious. Philosophical thought experiments such as philosophical zombies and inverted qualia illustrate the difficulty but remain unfalsifiable and thus untestable. Consequently, questioning AI consciousness is deemed an intriguing but practically unhelpful inquiry. The speaker suggests that current AI developments demonstrate that many complex computations can be performed without consciousness. Therefore, the primary focus should be on how conscious humans can effectively align with non-conscious AI systems. Understanding the unique computational roles of consciousness might clarify the boundaries of what AI systems can and cannot achieve. This approach offers a meaningful direction for AI alignment and development.
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We just dropped our interview with Joscha Bach - here is a clip of him reiterating that Deep Learning didn't hit a wall and his admiration for François Chollet courage releasing the ARC Prize
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0:50

John Searle: consciousness cannot be an illusion and here's the argument that makes it undeniable Science has a long track record of overturning our intuitions. The table looks solid, it isn't. The sun appears to set, it doesn't. We've learned to accept that appearances deceive us, and that reality lies beneath. But philosopher John Searle argues there is exactly one domain where this move simply cannot be made: consciousness itself. "Where consciousness is concerned, you can't make the standard appearance/reality distinction that we make for the rest of the world." His logic is simple. When a scientist tells you the table isn't really solid and that it's a cloud of micro-particles, you can accept that. The appearance (solidity) and the reality (particles) are two different things, and you can hold them apart. Same with the sunset. It looks like the sun moves. It doesn't. The rotation of the Earth creates an illusion. Appearance and reality come apart and you understand the gap. Now try applying that same logic to your conscious experience. Someone claims your pain isn't really there, that your awareness is just an illusion. But here, Searle says, the distinction collapses entirely: "Where the existence of consciousness is concerned, the appearance is the reality. There's no way that some guy can come to me and convince me I'm not conscious if I think I'm conscious, I am conscious." This is a structural point about what consciousness fundamentally is. For every other phenomenon, the appearance can be explained away by pointing to what's "really" happening underneath. But consciousness is the very medium in which all appearances occur. There is no "underneath" to retreat to. To say consciousness is an illusion, you would first need to be conscious of the illusion. The argument defeats itself on contact.

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