Video wird geladen...
Video konnte nicht geladen werden
The quantum-mitigation question on every cryptographer's mind: to use hash-based or Lattice-based signatures in Bitcoin? Hash-based signature schemes—e.g. SHRINCs/SHRIMPS by Blockstream's Jonas Nick—have been called "the conservative choice" by Adam Back while Dan Boneh makes a push for lattice-based signatures. "Hash-based signatures are combinatorial in nature—and that limits a... show more
14,567 Aufrufe • vor 5 Monaten •via X (Twitter)
18 Kommentare
@Blockstream @n1ckler @danboneh note @boneh is not disagreeing with hash-based signatures being the conservative choice, he's just saying that lattice's are more algebraic in nature, and so make it more flexible and easier to do advanced things, such as what is being done with schnorr today (muSig2, frost etc).
@Blockstream @n1ckler @danboneh @boneh Very true. It sounds like he is favoring a more progressive lattice-based approach though as his recommendation for Bitcoin. Do you take a position here? Any response?
@Blockstream @n1ckler @danboneh @boneh he seems to be saying largely the same things. i'd say however get a conservative PQ signature scheme op code deployed, like OP_CHECKSHRINCS; and then add a more efficient/flexible one later. also agree with his views quantum hardware being some years off, post 2035 at least.
@Blockstream @n1ckler @danboneh @boneh how’s OP_CHECKSHRINCS BIP coming along @n1ckler ?
@Blockstream @n1ckler @danboneh @boneh technical write up
@Blockstream @n1ckler @danboneh @boneh on the lattice agility see our more recent survey paper explaining the flexibilities
@Blockstream @n1ckler @danboneh @boneh here's @ZamDmytro from @blksresearch explaining the lattice flexibility and tradeoffs topic
Amazing - will dig into all of the above. Perhaps a dedicated PQ signatures episode of Bitcoin Rails will be appropriate soon. Also, @conduition_io just offered some insight into the hash v lattice debate on the mailing list - @conduition_io would you be willing to share your POV on this subject here as well for good measure?
@n1ckler @adam3us @danboneh Lattice-based signatures are in play. Latest work from @blksresearch ⬇️
@n1ckler @adam3us @danboneh @blksresearch Good to know! 🤩
FULL EPISODE with @danboneh
@Blockstream @n1ckler @adam3us @danboneh lattice gives more room to grow but hash is tried and true astrology says uranus in retrograde favors caution though so maybe stick with hash for now and see how things align
@Blockstream @n1ckler @adam3us @danboneh 🤔🤔
@Blockstream @n1ckler @adam3us @danboneh tough call!
@n1ckler @adam3us @danboneh freedom of choice is good
@Blockstream @n1ckler @adam3us @danboneh lattice feels cleaner until you want threshold, then it gets messy fast
@Blockstream @n1ckler @adam3us @danboneh Crypto finally reached the stage where Bitcoin debates sound less like finance and more like advanced physics lectures. Most users still struggle with seed phrases while cryptographers argue about surviving quantum attacks. Which approach do you trust more long term?
@Blockstream @n1ckler @adam3us @danboneh You can do threshold signatures with hashes. But it is a bit more costly for the client for acceptable signature/proof sizes.
![BITCOIN RAILS #70: THE CASE FOR LATTICE-BASED SIGNATURES IN BITCOIN | with CTO of Ledger Charles Guillemet 🔗 YouTube: 🌿 Spotify: To date, post-quantum Bitcoin discussions have largely centered on which digital signature schemes offer the strongest cryptographic security against a quantum adversary. But cryptographic assumptions are only one dimension of security. Different signature schemes introduce different implementation and operational risks. How should Bitcoin weigh cryptographic conservatism against the complexity required to deploy that cryptography safely? While hash-based signatures are often favored for their conservative assumptions, CTO of Ledger, Charles Guillemet Charles Guillemet argues that evaluating primitives in isolation can obscure consequential risks at the systems level. Stateful hash-based schemes, in particular, introduce state-management requirements where operational or user error can have catastrophic consequences —despite their conservative cryptographic foundations. In this interview, Charles and I examine the tradeoffs of hash-based signatures and his case for greater consideration of lattice-based alternatives, i.e. ML-DSA. A very juicy episode for anyone seriously assessing Bitcoin's post-quantum design landscape. This episode of Bitcoin Rails is brought to you by: LayerTwo Labs LayerTwo Labs — developing research, software, and technologies for scaling Bitcoin via the integration of Drivechains (BIP 300/301) Hashi on Sui — a primitive for executing Bitcoin DeFi transactions, without having to trust a federated bridge or other centralized entity BitBox BitBox — an open-source Bitcoin-only hardware wallet, with smooth UX and no compromises on security. Check out Bitbox [dot] swiss and use code BITCOINRAILS to get a discount TIMESTAMPS: 00:00 — Intro 01:45 — How the quantum threat became real for Ledger 09:06 — NIST influence and what Ledger built into its SDK 21:25 — ML-DSA and why Falcon might not be the right choice 25:33 — The problem with hash-based signatures 31:38 — Stateful signatures and the throughput problem 36:48 — Does user error outweigh the security difference? 42:27 — Bitcoin post-quantum migration scenario 45:15 — Maintaining multisig capabilities in a post-quantum world 55:54 — NIST standardization process and the backdoor question 1:01:06 — Trezor's approach and device authentication 1:06:09 — Ledger’s approach to post-quantum signatures](https://image.24vids.com/tw-2092273519111385579/amplify_video_thumb/2092271558660165632/img/vLAew2F7HN1yExrB.jpg)
![BITCOIN RAILS #59: Post-Quantum Bitcoin Signatures (+ their tradeoffs) | with BIP 360 co-author Ethan ✨ is on BlueSky✨ Heilman 🐱 and Blockstream Head of Research Jonas Nick 🔗 YOUTUBE: 🌿 SPOTIFY: According to BIP 360 co-author Ethan Heilman, Bitcoin needs a minimum of two soft forks to become quantum resistant: P2MR (or an output type that can safely execute PQ signatures) + a post-quantum checksig (signature scheme). Ethan and the BIP 360 team (including myself and Hunter Beast 🕯️) introduced the P2MR part via a BIP 360 update late last year—but the question remains, what’s the most appropriate PQ signature scheme for Bitcoin? They all have substantive tradeoffs, but hash-based signatures seem to be leading technical discourse—likely due to recent optimizations by Jonas Nick and the broader Blockstream research team. It was an honor to sit down with both of these men - arguably the two most influential and productive cryptographers in Bitcoin quantum mitigation right now - for an in-depth review of the leading PQ signature schemes and a temperature check on Bitcoin’s post-quantum planning process. TBH, if you want to skip the noise and jump straight to the signal on quantum, this is the interview to watch. In this episode, we discuss: - What needs to happen at the soft fork, infra, and mitigation levels to fully quantum-harden Bitcoin - Recent updates to BIP 360 + breakdown of the leading hash-based signatures schemes for Bitcoin (SHRINCS + SHRIMPS) - Why we may actually get consensus around a stateful scheme for Bitcoin - Comparisons of hash-based signatures vs Lattice and Isogeny-based schemes - Assessing the risks of both waiting too long and acting too fast (and why quantum is a better threat to be facing than a potential classical attack) This episode of Bitcoin Rails is brought to you by my NEW sponsors: - LayerTwo Labs LayerTwo Labs — developing research, software, and technologies for scaling Bitcoin via the integration of Drivechains (BIP 300/301) - Hashi on Sui — a primitive for executing Bitcoin Defi transactions, without having to trust a federated bridge or other centralized entity - BitBox BitBox — an open-source Bitcoin-only hardware wallet, with smooth UX and no compromises on security. Check out Bitbox [dot] swiss and use code BITCOINRAILS to get a discount TIMESTAMPS: 00:00 Intro 02:18 Ethan’s Quantum Wakeup 05:18 How Blockstream Enters Post Quantum 09:25 BIP 360 Explained 12:11 How Bitcoin Transitions to PQ 17:35 Choosing Post Quantum Signatures 23:20 How Blockstream Created SHRINCS 27:22 Signature Budgets Importance Explained 41:13 What are SHRIMPS? 44:51 SHRIMPS vs SHRINCS 47:48 Why SLH-DSA Alone Won’t Cut It 49:24 Is a SHRIMPS + SHRINCS BIP Coming? 51:51 Blockstream’s Big Plans for Liquid 59:04 Quantum Readiness Roadmap 01:02:22 Importance of a PQ Recovery Plan 01:05:35 How Long Would a PQ Migration Take 01:11:17 Quantum Watchlist Recommendations](https://image.24vids.com/tw-2051672209454756108/amplify_video_thumb/2051671562672082952/img/GYI9mVH4-kcDz2Gz.jpg)
![BITCOIN RAILS #72: Bitcoin's Leading Post-Quantum Signature Proposal | with SHRINCS co-author conduition 🔗 YouTube: 🌿 Spotify: The first fully specified post-quantum signature scheme for Bitcoin has been proposed to the Bitcoin mailing list. The proposal introduces a full specification for “SHRINCS,” a hash-based signature scheme initially conceived by Jonas Nick and Mikhail Kudinov of Blockstream Research Blockstream — with specification details added by new co-authors conduition remix and BIP 360 co-author Ethan ✨ is on BlueSky✨ Heilman 🐱 Today, I’m honored to share a full whiteboard explanation of the scheme by its co-author Conduition — as well as a thorough discussion of the scheme’s key tradeoffs when compared to Bitcoin’s existing elliptic-curve signatures and competing post-quantum alternatives. In more detail, this interview includes: — A full whiteboard walkthrough of the scheme’s key components and its relationship to the NIST-standardized scheme SPHINCS+ — SHRINCs’ introduction of a compact stateful path - yes, I said stateful 🌶️ — Whiteboard explanations of all relevant cryptographic subschemes, including FORS, WOTS+C, and XMSS — Thorough discussion of the scheme’s tradeoffs and implications for Bitcoin’s existing functionality If you have a vested interest in understanding what may be the future signature scheme protecting Bitcoin transactions in a post-quantum world, this episode is a must-watch. WARNING: this episode is fairly technical — don't beat yourself up if you don't catch everything, or need to watch it a few times to grok the details. This episode of Bitcoin Rails is brought to you by: LayerTwo Labs LayerTwo Labs — developing research, software, and technologies for scaling Bitcoin via the integration of Drivechains (BIP 300/301) Hashi on Sui — a primitive for executing Bitcoin DeFi transactions, without having to trust a federated bridge or other centralized entity BitBox BitBox — an open-source Bitcoin-only hardware wallet, with smooth UX and no compromises on security. Check out Bitbox [dot] swiss and use code BITCOINRAILS to get a discount TIMESTAMPS: 00:00 — Intro 01:26 — The SHRINCS BIP and how conduition got here 05:26 — Building slhvk and joining the Blockstream working group 08:34 — Why hash-based signatures, even without quantum 14:08 — What SPHINCS is and what stateless really means 18:45 — Losing count and why state is dangerous 24:44 — SHRINCS and the stateless backup WHITEBOARD SESSION STARTS HERE: 30:30 — Inside the SHRINCS public key 34:39 — Winternitz signatures and hypertrees 43:18 — Signature sizes and witness discount 51:42 — Inside the stateful side and FXMSS 1:01:25 — Where the stateful and stateless sides differ 1:08:50 — UXMSS, BXMSS and getting wallet devs up to speed 1:19:03 — FORS and the forest of random subsets 1:34:24 — What Bitcoin gives up with hash-based signatures 1:39:08 — Migration and where SHRINCS could be deployed](https://image.24vids.com/tw-2092971357797499071/amplify_video_thumb/2092969885244542976/img/cTncZSr6A48J7yq8.jpg)
![BITCOIN RAILS #61: QUANTUM CRYPTOGRAPHY FOR BITCOIN | with Dan Boneh Dan Boneh 🔗 YOUTUBE: 🌿 SPOTIFY: One of the most prolific and influential cryptographers in the world, it’s difficult to fully quantify the impact that Dan Boneh has had on Bitcoin and digital assets more broadly. Through both his own research and his mentorship of some of the space’s most important contributors — e.g. Andrew Poelstra, Benedikt Bünz ☕️, and Robin Linus ⛊ — few people have done more to shape the cryptographic foundations underlying modern blockchains and digital finance. More recently, Dan co-authored Google's widely discussed paper, “Securing Elliptic Curve Cryptocurrencies against Quantum Vulnerabilities,” which reduced prior estimates of the resources required to run Shor’s algorithm against the elliptic-curve cryptography used by Bitcoin. The paper reignited debate around quantum computing timelines and the long-term security assumptions behind modern cryptocurrencies. In this episode of Bitcoin Rails, Dan and I discuss the current state of quantum computing, its potential implications for Bitcoin, and how he believes the Bitcoin community should think about preparing for a post-quantum future over the coming decade and beyond. And yes, Dan shares his take on the “when quantum” question in the interview, among other key perspectives. This episode of Bitcoin Rails is brought to you by my NEW sponsors: LayerTwo Labs LayerTwo Labs — developing research, software, and technologies for scaling Bitcoin via the integration of Drivechains (BIP 300/301) Hashi on Sui — a primitive for executing Bitcoin Defi transactions, without having to trust a federated bridge or other centralized entity BitBox BitBox — an open-source Bitcoin-only hardware wallet, with smooth UX and no compromises on security. Check out Bitbox [dot] swiss and use code BITCOINRAILS to get a discount TIMESTAMPS: 00:00 — Intro and Dan’s history with cryptography and Bitcoin 11:44 — Shor's algorithm: how a 1994 paper became cryptography's most important threat 16:39 — Building a quantum computer: superconducting qubits vs neutral atoms 25:37 — When should we start worrying about quantum computers? The timeline debate 31:51 — Have we already reached quantum computing's “ahá” moment? 39:09 — Inside the Google paper: how Shor's algorithm was optimized 49:57 — The Bitcoin mempool attack and the 10-minute window 59:21 — Mitigation: what should Bitcoin do to prepare for quantum? 1:11:54 — Hash-based vs lattice-based signatures: Dan's case for lattice 1:23:15 — ZK proofs, BIP361, and what to do with Satoshi's coins 1:31:52 — Encrypted mempools and MEV 1:38:29 — Why Bitcoin will survive quantum and Dan's message to Bitcoin builders](https://image.24vids.com/tw-2057110642662797602/amplify_video_thumb/2057106711635275776/img/Pa2J_IxNMDKku2uu.jpg)
